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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieK View Post
    Wait wait wait:: OBAMA WAS THE CLINICIAN????
    This is the EVENTING board...
    A friend told me I was delusional. I almost fell off my unicorn.



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarrieK View Post
    Wait wait wait:: OBAMA WAS THE CLINICIAN????

    Oh my, that was the mental image I got, too!
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.


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  3. #103
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    Originally Posted by Jleegriffith
    Somebody local to me set up several clinics with a clinician and from all the response that I heard people found it a waste of time. Nobody spoke up. Why? Because the person likely wouldn't believe what was said and would take it personally. I imagine what will happen is that the next time this person sets up a clinic with said trainer there will be little to no attendance. That seems to be the way that people "speak up" about their experiences in various clinics.

    We all have our preferred teaching styles and I think that is what makes our experiences so different.

    I would rather do lessons than a clinic because I think I get more bang for my buck.
    [/QUOTE]Retreadeventer
    Thanks. Very helpful.
    WOW



  4. #104
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    Before you start saddling up the drama llama I had already told retread that I wasn't talking about her


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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jleegriffith View Post
    I would assume the people who organized the clinic thinky highly of this person and likely wouldn't be interested in your feedback. I suppose we all have our own opinions so there isn't much you can do. I have had similar experiences where I found a clinic or a lesson to be bad and when I do voice my opinion it is disregarded. I just speak with my wallet and don't make the same mistake twice.

    Somebody local to me set up several clinics with a clinician and from all the response that I heard people found it a waste of time. Nobody spoke up. Why? Because the person likely wouldn't believe what was said and would take it personally. I imagine what will happen is that the next time this person sets up a clinic with said trainer there will be little to no attendance. That seems to be the way that people "speak up" about their experiences in various clinics.

    We all have our preferred teaching styles and I think that is what makes our experiences so different.

    I would rather do lessons than a clinic because I think I get more bang for my buck.
    Curious, would you be willing to fill out an evaluation form if it were available in your clinic "package"?



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jleegriffith View Post
    Before you start saddling up the drama llama I had already told retread that I wasn't talking about her
    dang, I hate being out of the loop!



  7. #107
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    I guess the point that I am trying to make is that people in horse world take things way too personally. Phillip Dutton is an awesome rider but I have watched several clinics and didn't think much of his teaching style. I absolutely would not have any desire to ride in a Jimmy Wofford clinic because he talks so much and I don't find he gives a lot of information or corrections. Lucinda Green really doesn't do much for me. Denny Emerson talks way too much instead of teaching.

    Did you just read what I wrote and think to yourself that perhaps I don't know what I am talking about? Those are all great clinicians, I must be crazy. I am sure many people did and that is okay. I know those are all great riders and I am sure great instructors but just not for me. I don't necessarily want to be the person that talks negatively about my experiences. I hate to gossip. I think most of us just simply don't attend again. What can a clinic organizer do for people that didn't enjoy the clinic or had a bad experience? Nothing, because they need the funds to pay for it so there is nothing gained by speaking up. They obviously must think highly of the person if they set up the clinic with them so if you speak up you likely are going to offend the clinic organizer. A lot of times the clinic just isn't right for your teaching style. It has nothing to do with how good your horse is or how you ride. It has everything to do with how you prefer to learn. For me it has to do with the value of instruction for the money that I am paying. If I don't feel like I am getting valuable tools out of a lesson/clinic that I don't attend again.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  8. #108
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    Would a clinic evaluation form help the clinician improve their teaching method for next time?
    I mean, even though they have been doing it for a long time, there is always room for improvement - right?
    Say the clinic attendees all filled out the form (or maybe just 75% did) and half of them mentionned they thought 20 mns of talking was too long maybe just maybe the clinician would change things a bit for next time.
    (Probably not but at least they might become aware of it.)
    A friend told me I was delusional. I almost fell off my unicorn.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEARCAT View Post
    Would a clinic evaluation form help the clinician improve their teaching method for next time?
    I mean, even though they have been doing it for a long time, there is always room for improvement - right?
    Say the clinic attendees all filled out the form (or maybe just 75% did) and half of them mentionned they thought 20 mns of talking was too long maybe just maybe the clinician would change things a bit for next time.
    (Probably not but at least they might become aware of it.)

    While a clinic evaluation form can be helpful if there are glaring issues, in many cases, it is a manner of teaching style. Some clinic attendees like clinicians who focus on theory and discuss theoretical approach, whereas others prefer clinicians who focus on student riding.

    That is OK. Different strokes for different folks.

    I teach at the university level. Some students like my style, whereas other want more of a seminar. I don't think that I can teach my material effectively in a seminar style, so I advise students who want seminars to sign up for seminars rather than my class. I read the evaluations. Some offer useful feedback, but I have no plans to completely restructure my class.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #110
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    We send out clinic evaluations for every clinic we host, and to date, I have gotten 0 back.


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by eponacowgirl View Post
    We send out clinic evaluations for every clinic we host, and to date, I have gotten 0 back.
    'xactly

    Clinic evals are not just about a given clinician changing his style but would allow the organizer to bring in future clinicians more suited to what local riders prefer ... then there is the nitty gritty of how the clinic was organized, e.g., stabling options, ride times, lunches etc, etc.

    I meet so many people that will complain passionately about an experience but won't actually communicate with the coach, host, clinician & so on ...
    This just confounds me.


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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jleegriffith View Post
    I guess the point that I am trying to make is that people in horse world take things way too personally. Phillip Dutton is an awesome rider but I have watched several clinics and didn't think much of his teaching style. I absolutely would not have any desire to ride in a Jimmy Wofford clinic because he talks so much and I don't find he gives a lot of information or corrections. Lucinda Green really doesn't do much for me. Denny Emerson talks way too much instead of teaching.

    Did you just read what I wrote and think to yourself that perhaps I don't know what I am talking about? Those are all great clinicians, I must be crazy. I am sure many people did and that is okay. I know those are all great riders and I am sure great instructors but just not for me. I don't necessarily want to be the person that talks negatively about my experiences. I hate to gossip. I think most of us just simply don't attend again. What can a clinic organizer do for people that didn't enjoy the clinic or had a bad experience? Nothing, because they need the funds to pay for it so there is nothing gained by speaking up. They obviously must think highly of the person if they set up the clinic with them so if you speak up you likely are going to offend the clinic organizer. A lot of times the clinic just isn't right for your teaching style. It has nothing to do with how good your horse is or how you ride. It has everything to do with how you prefer to learn. For me it has to do with the value of instruction for the money that I am paying. If I don't feel like I am getting valuable tools out of a lesson/clinic that I don't attend again.
    This is why I do not understand why we poo poo naming clinicians when someone has had a bad experience. Say someone came on here asking about Phillip Dutton. All they get are people like me who say they loved the clinic, but they do not get people like Jleegrffith, who has a conflict with his teaching style. He is not for everyone - but for me he's great. He teaches very similarly to my long time trainer.

    So, in the instance of this thread - people are wondering who it is, exactly what happened.

    I will use Phillip as an example because I have cliniced with him. Say someone came on here and said, "I cliniced with someone and I found him rude and he didn't talk enough or really explain what he was going for. I also was annoyed that he didn't explain to the group what he was doing with the other riders." JLeegriffith can also comment and bring more clarification of what to expect at a clinic of his.

    Without knowing who the clinician was, no one can comment. If she had stated "I rode with Phillip Dutton," someone like me could say, "Yes, he tends to not beat around the bush and he did get some tension in his voice when he was working with me on something, but I took it as just trying to get the point across. I can see how someone else may take it as yelling, but I don't think he means it that way. I feel he echoed my frustration at screwing up the exercise repeatedly."

    Someone else can read these comments and make a more educated decision. This is why Blisstate's post was so helpful - but she was apparently AT that clinic. If the clinicians name is mentioned, people can throw in their experiences at other places.

    It makes a difference in what you do - if it turns out to be a difference in teaching/learning preferences, you can just chalk it up to experience. If the clinician may have had a bad weekend, maybe give them another go. Finally, if there area a lot of negative comments - more people can make the educated decision to skip or audit first.

    Like others have said - it is like product reviews. If you do not know what product is being reviewed and only look a the good comments, you cannot make educated buying decisions.


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  13. #113
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    Jan. 23, 2004
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    Ajierene, sure but as you could read in this very thread she was instantly picked apart when people figured out who she rode with and that somebody else at the clinic had a completely different experience and thought SHE was the problem. See, that right there is why people don't speak up

    Phillip is obviously a wealth of information but I watched him teach two clinics and at a camp. He is very quiet and doesn't give a lot of feedback. The most educational part was watching him get on and ride a few horses. He didn't give much feedback there either but I could see him systematically working through the problem and I was able to get some good information from that. I was glad that I had audited and not paid to ride just because I am not sure if I would have felt like I got good enough feedback for the value. I can say that because I know that I am a rider who likes feedback and to be told what I am doing wrong. I don't need my hand held but a good instructor should be able to pick apart the major flaws in a horse and rider and give some basic exercises to help improve upon them.

    I am lucky enough to live in Area 2 where we have so many great instructors in every discipline that it makes you really picky about good instruction. I do go to a ton of clinics to audit. Very worthwhile and a good opportunity to see who fits your learning style.


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jleegriffith View Post
    Ajierene, sure but as you could read in this very thread she was instantly picked apart when people figured out who she rode with and that somebody else at the clinic had a completely different experience and thought SHE was the problem. See, that right there is why people don't speak up
    HA! I know...it is just so frustrating! The nice thing about where we live is the wealth of clinicians, but then I also suffer a bit from that - I look at a clinician more than an hour away and wonder if it is worth the 'long drive'! I am that way about shows also. Luckily, my trainer has other students that are less picky, so I can get feedback from them before making the 'long trek'. Oh, we are so spoiled!



  15. #115
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    So I am one who has thought less positively about some clinics than about others. I guess I am concerned that I will offend someone personally or be criticized personally if I speak up. We are a very small community and I am pretty sure that so and so clinician will hear about my criticism directly, and that it was on THE COTH board, and... yadayada...

    I like a clinician who does NOT chat with others while I am riding. I like a clinician who does NOT play favorites. I like a clinician who is constructive and critical of what I am doing. I like a clinician who will allow people to ask questions but sets limits on how much one person may dominate the group learning.

    I love instructors who continuously give feedback, as I am going around. I love being yelled at!!! I seek those sorts out. That is Sharon White over the past two years. She makes me work my butt off and has never acted like I am the older person and therefore not as "important" as an up and coming 4* rider riding in my group.

    I've been in a group lesson where the clinician chatted with others, organizers, riders etc., and actually missed seeing some of the jumps. That is just plain rude. In the past, I was one to forgive if the clinician is a famous and highly respected person.... but I have reached a conclusion that the resume' of a clinician has nothing to do with what I take away... duh...

    I also really like a clinician who gets there early and works to set up exercises, grids, etc etc.

    A long, long time ago, back in the early to mid 1990s, Stuart Black used to travel to Michigan and give clinics at Hunters Run, in Metamora. He was excellent and I was at every single clinic I could attend. I know he is now history, hidden somewhere down in Texas, and there is quite a bit of scandal surrounding him. He was all of the above plus he could be quite harsh. Harsh is okay as long as it's not rude.

    Although many clinicians are entertaining through telling stories and tales of great persons, I do not appreciate this sort of story telling in a clinic. I would rather buy the book and let my $$ for the clinic go toward learning as much as possible.

    I'm a bit of a curmudgeon when it comes to instructors.

    A


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  16. #116
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    Just as you want feedback to improve your riding I think you should give feedback so the clinician can improve his teaching.
    Giving respectful opinions of why you didn't like what happened and what you did like is reasonable and in this case needed. He simply may not be aware of the imbalance, knowing you got a whole 6 minutes of riding time should be made known to him.

    If no one tells him they don't like what he does he will have no reason to change.
    Maybe someone has told him how much they appreciate the talking.....and he just missed the balance......

    I would also cc the person who organized the clinic,
    1. so they could be aware and if they got the same person they might ask for more actual riding time, or they would get another clinician.
    2. Protection for you, so no one can say you said this or that when you didn't.


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorfan View Post
    Just as you want feedback to improve your riding I think you should give feedback so the clinician can improve his teaching.

    I think this is an important point. And it reminds me a bit of some stuff I read from Buck Brannaman, about how hard he had to work to start to teach people. Having training knowledge and horse mojo isn't enough, if someone wants to teach, they have to learn how to do that too Of course, the big question is how some of these people might take constructive criticism of that nature (and how some people would give it).

    At the end of every college course I ever took, and every training class I've taken since getting a job, there was an evaluation form for the instructor/professor. Thinking that these might be a good idea for clinicians to start doing too, if they're up for it. I do think a lot of people (both clinicians and students) might be too in awe of the person's riding and training record to suggest that they need help learning to teach, too.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


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  18. #118
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    I set up a lot of Jimmy Wofford clinics (almost monthly) because he is who I have trained with for years. Yeah...he talks alot and isn't for everyone but he is the best trainer for me...no one knocks the rust off better or gets me riding better. I fill the clinics easily and often have too many riders. I have one coming up on Tuesday that I filled without advertising (I actually do not advertise the clinics often and fill it first with folks who have contacted me or long time students of his). If someone doesn't want to ride with him...I'm not offended. It is no different than training with different people. There are good trainers that I don't ride with for the same reason...what works well for one person may not work for another.

    I personally have had some very good clinics with Phillip. He couldn't be more different than Jimmy in what they focus on and how they teach--and that is why I liked riding with him. But hands down...I prefer riding with both in a lesson situation rather than a clinic....and I'm lucky enough to be able to that. And honestly both are VERY different in a lesson situation than in a clinic situation.

    My thing is I don't like negative posts about clinicians because to me the issue is often not the clinician. They shouldn't change their style for you. It is about doing your own homework and deciding if it is worth it to you or your horse to do this clinic. The negative posts almost always turn into a train wreck. Asking questions such as what is the teaching style of this clinican is fine and auditing a clinic first if you have the chance is ideal. But bottom line, you have to know yourself. And sometimes it may be knowing yourself well enough to know that you do not get enough out of clinic to be worth your time.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 9, 2013 at 01:00 PM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    And honestly both are VERY different in a lesson situation than in a clinic situation.
    I second this! I have found many times over that instructors can be so different in a clinic atmosphere (multiple bigger groups over one or two days, with many new students) as opposed to a lesson situation. I think a big part of that is familiarity of the instructor with the student and student's horse, but more importantly, familiarity of the student with the methods and "language" of the instructor. Many times I feel like clinics have more talking, simply because an instructor needs to introduce people to the principles that dominate their teaching.

    I have never gotten more from a training session than from when I have trailered my horse to the instructor's farm for a lesson. Jim Wofford the first BNT who I trailered to years ago (actually, my first solo trip driving a trailer was to his farm when I was 16!!), and I would come away from my lessons with him at Fox Covert feeling like I could write a book on what I had just learned. It was nearly a religious experience. However, during this time I also rode in a clinic with him hosted by the farm where I was boarding, and it was...meh. Most people seemed to be happy with the clinic, but after such incredible lessons with him at his place, I wanted more.

    I have found this clinic vs. lesson difference to be pretty consistent among the people I've worked with. Bottom line, I spend my limited $$ on lessons (even if it means I need to drive a bit) rather than riding in pricey clinics. Another great opportunity is something that Gretchen at Waredaca here in MD is doing: hosting monthly "expert days" with the same instructors, including Boyd, Jim, Stephen Bradley, Mara DePuy, and others. It's an incredible way to ride with these guys with some regularity without having to do the legwork of setting up the lessons yourself. Much more of a "lesson" experience than a "clinic" experience.


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  20. #120
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    I agree that people don't speak up about bad clinic experiences for exactly this reason. The OP did not reveal the clincian but indicated that she wasn't happy with the clinic. Then an alter shows up, outs the clinician, and tears apart the OP. Everyone on the thread immedietly takes the alter's word and also starts to trash the OP. Was this because the clinician was God himself? Or because one person with a negative view of the OP is worth more? I have no idea.


    Why speak up even tactfully for that?

    I also think that someone experienced with clinics and with a background of solid riding in the 3' 6" jumper ring would be just fine in a 2' 6" XC clinic as their first experience. It's not like she entered Training level and was upset because she couldn't jump the sunken road. Much different from a lower level rider jumping so so around 2' 6" wanting to do the same thing.


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