The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2004
    Posts
    179

    Default Pentosan Question

    I have a mare who has been getting a 15 cc dose of Pentosan, one time per month. The dose size is per the Vet, she is big. I plan to ask the Vet this as well, but he does not have a lot of expierence with Pentosan.
    Would there be any advantage to dosing her weekly, rather than monthly..like say 5cc a week. When a dose is due I can tell and I wondered if this might keep the medication more consistently in her system. Thanks in advance for any thoughts :-)



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2006
    Location
    Stoystown, PA
    Posts
    1,881

    Default

    How big is she? I would say dose her as often as she needs it but 15cc seems like a very high dose to me. The dose is normally 6ml per 1100lbs a week for 4 weeks during the loading period, then as often as the horse needs it after that, be that monthly, bi-monthly what have you.

    This is based on 250mg/ml.
    Last edited by BoyleHeightsKid; May. 2, 2013 at 11:35 AM.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2008
    Location
    Alberta, Canada and South Australia
    Posts
    2,951

    Default

    That seems like a massive overdose, as is dosing way more then needed. If you are dosing as the manufacture recommends , your horse is around 2300 pounds? Is she anywhere near that?

    We tend to do 5ml for weanlings. Yearlings and up get 6ml. We generally do a course of 4 ( once weekly). Even when we do only one a month ( rare) it is still only 6 ml.

    As for weekly vs monthly: I was always under the impression that you needed to to do the first 4 shots weekly and then move to monthly shots if needed.

    P.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    986

    Default

    It's impossible to know if the dose is too much/too little/just right without knowing the drug concentration.
    Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

    Former owner of the best Amish-carthorse-turned-eventer ever



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 5, 2005
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,219

    Default

    If you are using the 100 mg/ml then that dose is right on for an average sized horse. If you are using the 250 mg/ml...yikes!

    IMO giving one third of the vet recommended dose more frequently is not going to be effective--it's kind of like giving a third of a vial of Adequan.

    FWIW my older competition horses get 6cc of the 250 mg/ml concentration weekly. I may skip a week if they aren't showing but for the most part they get it every week.
    Quote Originally Posted by EquineImagined View Post
    My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 22, 2010
    Location
    Green Cove Springs, FL
    Posts
    199

    Default

    We just started Pentosan 2 months ago...did the loading dose of 6ml every 5 days for 5 shots, then have moved to bi-weekly. Makes a HUGE difference using it bi-weekly now. My trainer gives the horses in training a weekly shot - every Saturday morning.
    Heather
    Green Cove Springs, FL



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
    Posts
    36,321

    Default

    Need to know the concentration before you can comment on how much of a dose is 'too much' or 'enough'. But with the standard concentration of 250mg/ml that I buy, 15cc would be a WHOPPING HUGE DOSE and I'd worry about bleeding risk, not to mention worrying that the drug is simply being used inappropriately.
    Click here before you buy.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    9,266

    Default Hard to say without knowing horse's weight and pentosan concentration

    Recommended dose is 3 mg/kg. Most concentrations I have come accross are 250 mg/ml, though I have found 125 mg/ml.

    Average horse =500 kg so you want 1500 mg for that weight.
    (6mlx250 mg/ml=1500mg or 12mlx125 mg/ml=1500 mg).
    If your vet is using PentAussie or something similar and your horse is around 1500 lbs, 15 mls sounds about right, maybe even a little low.
    1500 lbs is approximately 700 kg
    (700 kg x 3mg/kg=2100 mg *recommended dose
    15ml x 125 mg/ml= 1875 mg *dose using 15 mls of 125 mg/ml)




    Research suggests that higher doses may be more effective.

    "PPS may not be sufficiently potent to demonstrate a clinical effect at the current dose of 3 mg/kg, which may be the reason many practitioners are recommending a higher dose of 6 mg/kg. Caution always should be used and attention to timing and dosage is important."


    http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm...ageID=3http://

    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22533393

    Even if your vet is using 250 mg/ml and your horse is 1500 lbs that still puts the dose under 6mg/kg (about 5.5 ish mg/kg).

    I wouldn't be too alarmed. And I don't think breaking the dose up into 5 ml shots will give you any benefit at all

    Ask your vet about your concerns
    Last edited by nhwr; May. 2, 2013 at 10:07 AM.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 12, 2001
    Location
    Center of the Universe
    Posts
    6,901

    Default

    there's a study in dogs where they did 1 mg/kg, 3 mg/kg, and 5 mg/kg (once a week shots) and found the 3 mg/kg was most effective at relieving symptoms of arthritis, better than the higher dose.


    there's this study of dosing in horses, showing the higher doses are more likely to cause adverse events:




    Aust Vet J. 2001 Sep;79(9):624-7.

    The effect of three different doses of sodium pentosan polysulphate on haematological and haemostatic variables in adult horses.

    Dart A, Perkins N, Dowling, Batterham T, Livingston C, Hodgson D.


    Source

    The University Veterinary Centre Camden, Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, University of Sydney, New SouthWales.


    Abstract


    OBJECTIVE:

    To evaluate the effects of three different doses of sodium pentosan polysulphate (PPS) on haematological and haemostatic variables in adult horses.

    DESIGN:

    Eight adult standardbred horses were used. All horses received a single injection of 0, 3, 6, and 10 mg/kg of PPS at the beginning of each treatment week for 4 weeks so that by the end of the study all horses had received all four doses of PPS. Blood samples were collected at 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, 24, 48, and 168 h after each weekly injection of PPS. Variables measured were packed cell volume, haemoglobin, red blood cell count, mean corpuscular volume, mean corpuscular haemoglobin, mean corpuscular haemoglobin concentration, platelet count, white cell count, neutrophil count, lymphocyte count, eosinophil count, monocyte count, serum protein, fibrinogen, prothrombin time, and activated partial thromboplastin time (PTT). Data were analysed using an ANOVA. Significance was set at P < 0.05.

    RESULTS:

    There was a dose-dependent increase in PTT. A significant increase in PTT occurrred in all treatment groups when compared to horses receiving 0 mg/kg in which there was no change over time. The PTT values all returned to baseline by 48 h after treatment. The mean neutrophil count was higher 3 h after treatment when compared to time 0. Horses receiving 3 mg/kg of PPS had a higher lymphocyte count 4 h after injection, and those receiving 6 and 10 mg/kg had higher counts at 3,4,6 and 8 h after injection when compared to time 0. At 8 h after injection horses receiving 6 and 10 mg PPS had higher lymphocyte counts than horses not receiving PPS.

    CONCLUSIONS:

    PPS causes a dose-dependent prolongation of PTT in horses. At the dose rates currently recommended for treatment of joint problems in horses this increase was small and remained elevated from baseline for up to 24 h. Based on these findings doses of PPS up to 3 mg/kg should not be administered to horses within 24 h of high stress activities or where physical injury may occur.


    PMID: 11702935 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2009
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,944

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rprincess73 View Post
    We just started Pentosan 2 months ago...did the loading dose of 6ml every 5 days for 5 shots, then have moved to bi-weekly. Makes a HUGE difference using it bi-weekly now. My trainer gives the horses in training a weekly shot - every Saturday morning.
    That's interesting. I've been doing every 2 weeks, and I have a horse who was not sound, and now she is sound, fluid, and almost too eager to go. (Which makes me happy, I just worry she'll overdo and injure herself; she's solid as a rock, so no worries otherwise.) It seemed like I was dosing more frequently that most, but I want her comfortable, and the expense is minimal.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,757

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by katyb View Post
    That's interesting. I've been doing every 2 weeks, and I have a horse who was not sound, and now she is sound, fluid, and almost too eager to go. (Which makes me happy, I just worry she'll overdo and injure herself; she's solid as a rock, so no worries otherwise.) It seemed like I was dosing more frequently that most, but I want her comfortable, and the expense is minimal.
    I, and several people in my barn do it weekly so that the 250 ml/mg bottle doesn't expire before it is used up. It's made a huge difference in my horse so I don't mind the expense.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    9,266

    Default

    Wendy, the risks sited in that study aren't huge or unmanageable, (which is not meant to encourage people to dose up). The only real concern is an elevated PTT for 48 hours post injection. But if pentosan is a heparinoid, that can be managed.


    it is really encouraging to hear so many success stories about pentosan. My mare got her 2nd dose yesterday.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2009
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,944

    Default

    I'm aware of the possible risks, but they don't concern me really. The difference between lame and sound are too profound to play the what if game. It'd be different if the result were less impressive, maybe. If something made me feel that much better, I would certainly assume similar risks for that benefit.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2004
    Location
    Sisters, Oregon
    Posts
    1,903

    Default

    My three that are on it weigh in at right around 1400# (on a scale). The vet told me to give them 10cc once a week for the loading dose then "as needed".

    He did recommend that we give a dose the week of competition even if it's out of synch with the schedule.
    Kanoe Godby
    www.dyrkgodby.com
    See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    9,266

    Default

    just reading through all the post here and I noticed this
    We tend to do 5ml for weanlings. Yearlings and up get 6ml. We generally do a course of 4 ( once weekly). Even when we do only one a month ( rare) it is still only 6 ml.

    I'm curious; why are you giving pentosan to horses this young?
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2008
    Location
    Alberta, Canada and South Australia
    Posts
    2,951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr View Post
    just reading through all the post here and I noticed this


    I'm curious; why are you giving pentosan to horses this young?
    They are coming back from surgery ( chips, cysts etc). Vets have found that it helps them. I believe we have used Pentasan before surgery to see if that would resolve the problem, some success.

    * Note : these are TB weanling, generally long weanlings, that will be prepped for the yearling sales hence surgery and not waiting to see if it resolves on own.

    P.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2005
    Location
    Spotsylvania, VA
    Posts
    13,123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by katyb View Post
    I'm aware of the possible risks, but they don't concern me really. The difference between lame and sound are too profound to play the what if game. It'd be different if the result were less impressive, maybe. If something made me feel that much better, I would certainly assume similar risks for that benefit.
    Agree. This stuff is AMAZING. The results are as good as the IA injections which IMHO are MUCH more risky
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2004
    Posts
    179

    Default

    Thanls for all the responses. The Pentosan I use is 250mg/ml, si I am a little confused. Sher is about 1400lbs. The risks are miniscule in comparision to the benefits that I have seen from using the product. It is awesome stuff.
    Not sure I want to consider lowering the dose, but wondering why she figured it so high and still wondering about a smaller dose once a week.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2004
    Posts
    179

    Default

    My Vet appears to double the price and will not write a script, but I would still consder it a great value!!!



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2004
    Posts
    179

    Default

    I spoke to the Vet today and he said he would not want to go lower than 15cc a month, but that there is no advantage to giving smaller does weekly. The weekly doses would not be high enough to be effective.



Similar Threads

  1. Quick Pentosan question- Needle size
    By CupcakeTough in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Apr. 26, 2013, 01:05 PM
  2. ANOTHER Pentosan question...sorry :/
    By AzulBlue in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: Jan. 21, 2013, 03:06 PM
  3. Pentosan and Question Regarding Liver
    By Larbear in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Apr. 4, 2012, 02:52 PM
  4. Pentosan....
    By EauMare in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: Dec. 12, 2011, 08:51 AM
  5. HAS ANYONE USED PENTOSAN?
    By jodressage in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Nov. 16, 2011, 06:39 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness