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  1. #41
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    I think several of you are not hearing what some of us are saying. Not a single person has said this is a horrible rider on a horrible horse. On the contrary, we have said it’s a nice horse/rider combination. The controversy lies in Mike labeling this a “wonderful moment.”

    For those of you who saw the lesson, it may indeed be a wonderful moment. However, the rest of us did not see what came before. It could have been a completely backwards and upside down horse, so this would seem wonderful by comparison. However, we are seeing just a tiny snippet. There are some nice aspects to it—expressive trot, nice rhythm, good energy—but it’s not something I would dub “wonderful.”

    Isn’t the point of posting pictures and videos to review the good as well as the areas that could stand improvement for the purpose of learning? Those of us who are discussing areas where we could see improvement are now under siege for having the audacity to comment. If you want to tell us why we are incorrect and why this is wonderful, by all means please do, but don’t attack us and call us snarks without being able to back up your position.

    In the future, it might be a good idea when posting photos or videos to post a warning that comments are not to be made. I would not have touched this if I had realized the firestorm it was going to bring on.

    I would also mention that no one has answered Dune's perfectly fair question.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Thank you, Suzy. I, too, would like to know the context in which this was regarded as "wonderful," i.e., what was being taught, what were the rider and clinician trying to achieve? Without this kind of context, what are we to use as our standard for "wonderful" if not riders like Charlotte Dujardin, who've come infinitely closer to perfection than the vast majority of us dream of reaching and/or the ideals/principles that are supposed to define "10" in our sport? Without such context, I for one, can only refer to my own most cherished riding priorities/sense of what's basic, starting with seat, which I do not find "wonderful" in this video. Now, if generous overtrack, for example, were the primary objective at the time being taped, the moment is, indeed, quite wonderful.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Feb. 8, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzy View Post
    I think several of you are not hearing what some of us are saying.
    I think most people hear you perfectly well. Just because someone has a different point-of-view doesn't mean they are missing your point.

    I am not a fan of this clinician but I could appreciate the moment of riding that brought this rider joy. I write for a living too, both legal writing (as a lawyer) and creative writing. In my case, being a "stickler for detail" doesn't make me a better writer. Quite the contrary. The creative juices flow freer if I write "from the belly rather than the brain," as Isabel Allende puts it. I think the same thing can apply to riding. I enjoyed the video and see nothing wrong with calling it "wonderful."


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Oct. 16, 2008
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    Central Oklahoma
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I truly am curious, since you were there, what were they working on and what did they "overcome" with this horse that made this clip worthy of the "oohs & ahs"? Honest question, not trying to be snarky...
    I was not there, but from watching this short clip, I see that he was teaching her how to prepare a horse for extension: in the beginning of the clip, the horse was somehow active, but not enough for a nice extension; he saw it, asked the rider to ask for it, (both rider and horse were able to execute it when he asked; you can also see the attempt to ask for more while not running the horse to forehands), he then made sure she took care of proper rhythm, and when everything was setup, let the horse do the job. The result was in my mind, quite spectacular: very BEAUTIFUL extension. I was drooling watching that to be honest. This is a very capable rider and horse. Imagine to accomplish all that in a handful of strides.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Thank you, Gloria. That helped a great deal. I just hadn't realized that this "very capable pair" had not been able to produce that kind of extension prior to this moment.

    (FYI, a decade + ago I was blessed with a mare who moved liked that from the age of 2, and got "ah's" at clinics when I did no more than [as Ashton Moore put it] "ask her to go fast." As I suggested in my previous post, if this moment were regarded as "wonderful" because of the qualities of the movement, I understand completely! This is a very athletic pair with enormous potential.)



  6. #46
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    Dec. 23, 2010
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    Bloody heck, can't something be 'wonderful' just because it was a wonderful experience for the person who experienced it?? Sometimes I think dressage people are so attentive to their own embodied awareness that they forget their relative personal insignificance.

    To my mind, this is a video posted on Facebook and that suggests that to that person it meant rather a lot... that should be clue #1 that the video captures progress of some sort. I don't see why anyone would assume that it was just posted out of self-congratulatory ignorance, and worse yet, why they would post their resulting condemnation on a public forum for that poor rider to encounter unawares.

    For what it's worth, I watched it and thought it showed a horse initially a bit sucked-back that developed a better degree of looseness and forwardness. Yes, I noticed the flaws and I even had some thoughts about their possible causes - but surely this particular video wasn't shared on Facebook so that we random internet folks could practice our judging skills. I'll stick with enjoying the joy of someone else's a-ha moment - wonderful indeed.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    Bloody heck, can't something be 'wonderful' just because it was a wonderful experience for the person who experienced it?? Sometimes I think dressage people are so attentive to their own embodied awareness that they forget their relative personal insignificance.

    To my mind, this is a video posted on Facebook and that suggests that to that person it meant rather a lot... that should be clue #1 that the video captures progress of some sort. I don't see why anyone would assume that it was just posted out of self-congratulatory ignorance, and worse yet, why they would post their resulting condemnation on a public forum for that poor rider to encounter unawares.

    For what it's worth, I watched it and thought it showed a horse initially a bit sucked-back that developed a better degree of looseness and forwardness. Yes, I noticed the flaws and I even had some thoughts about their possible causes - but surely this particular video wasn't shared on Facebook so that we random internet folks could practice our judging skills. I'll stick with enjoying the joy of someone else's a-ha moment - wonderful indeed.
    But the person who posted it here was not the one who had the wonderful experience. If it had been I have little doubt that there would have been some description of what made the experience wonderful and congratulations all around for the "a-ha moment" described. In the absence of such description, I fail to see what's wrong (or "snarky") about asking what, specifically, was "wonderful" about the good, but still obviously flawed performance presented so I can learn from others' experiences and observations just as I hope they might learn from mine.

    So, to answer your leading ?: "can't something be 'wonderful' just because it was a wonderful experience for the person who experienced it?, " the answers are (1) "sure, but that didn't appear to be what we were dealing with here," and, (2) no one learns anything from unbridled praise. The video showed a talented, athletic rider on an even more gifted horse. IMO, both would improve enormously-- and be truly astounding performers-- if the rider were not perpetually sitting behind the motion, so her reins are too long and she gets left behind in her horse's marvelous lengthening, so she pulls back, the horse's mouth gapes.... and we are left with a "wonderful moment" begging for improvement. Why am I saying this? Because I have some inflated idea of my own significance? Maybe-- if that includes "been there, done that"-- i.e., I had a mover like this I was beginning to ruin when I met "seat specialist," Erica Poseley. Check her out.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Jan. 10, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    But the person who posted it here was not the one who had the wonderful experience. If it had been I have little doubt that there would have been some description of what made the experience wonderful and congratulations all around for the "a-ha moment" described. In the absence of such description, I fail to see what's wrong (or "snarky") about asking what, specifically, was "wonderful" about the good, but still obviously flawed performance presented so I can learn from others' experiences and observations just as I hope they might learn from mine.
    Exactly. A third party declared this to be "wonderful." But he's prone to hyperbole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    Those martingales were so taut, you could play Ode to Joy on them with a comb


    5 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    I think most people hear you perfectly well. Just because someone has a different point-of-view doesn't mean they are missing your point.

    I am not a fan of this clinician but I could appreciate the moment of riding that brought this rider joy. I write for a living too, both legal writing (as a lawyer) and creative writing. In my case, being a "stickler for detail" doesn't make me a better writer. Quite the contrary. The creative juices flow freer if I write "from the belly rather than the brain," as Isabel Allende puts it. I think the same thing can apply to riding. I enjoyed the video and see nothing wrong with calling it "wonderful."
    The different point of view is welcome, but no one seemed to be able to explain why this was wonderful until much later when a a couple of auditors at the clinic showed up to explain that it was a huge improvement over what had transpired earlier.

    As far as writing, I write nonfiction only, and my particular job requires that accuracy be my highest priority, not creativity.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Mar. 1, 2006
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    Ola, Rider here!

    I never held this video up as a moment of my or my horse's fabulousness. It was sent to me from someone I don't know who was videoing the whole clinic. It was a nice gesture. Would I have picked this part of the lesson to highlight- no I wouldn't have. At that point my horse was tired and was losing energy/self carriage and yes the same was true for me. I wasn't as fit as I perhaps I should have been going into the clinic, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity of riding with CDK. The latter has helped me a great deal with just a few lessons. Is is perfect, of course not. But if you had seen the whole lesson and not the last 58 seconds you would know that he created some, and I hesitate 'wonderful' learning experiences for my horse and I. I am striving to improve, it's slow. I am 52 years old, so it aint easy!

    I think MM has great admiration for CDK, as many of us do and there is very little video of CDK teaching out there and so this tiny morsel was enthusiastically pounced upon and quite frankly its not that terrible! Jeesh. I don't have any problem with your criticisms. Although, I think some of them are more a reflection of you than me. My flaws are pretty obvious as are everyone else's. Besides I was riding in an open clinic with a pretty educated crowd and was willing to be seen warts and all.

    I will say one thing tho. My pony is FABULOUS!

    Have a great night all!


    42 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Your horse IS fabulous, the video is NOT "terrible," and you are gracious to post here. Thank you. It would have been nice and very useful if the OP had provided context to this video from the outset.
    Charter member of the I-Refuse-to-Relinquish-My-Whip Clique


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Jan. 28, 2000
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    Columbia, Maryland
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    When CdK says "Super! Super!" and "Oh my god!", you did indeed have a "wonderful" moment plimsol! I've ridden in a lot of CdK clinics and watched other riders. You get that high level of praise from him only when you deserve it. Congratulations!
    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    The thing is, Suzy, that I DO understand your point too, and think this is a glass-half-full versus glass-half-empty type of situation. I think we each provided our own "context" to the video


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Matson View Post
    When CdK says "Super! Super!" and "Oh my god!", you did indeed have a "wonderful" moment plimsol! I've ridden in a lot of CdK clinics and watched other riders. You get that high level of praise from him only when you deserve it. Congratulations!
    Many, many years ago I got similar praise from Charles because after working very hard on a gigantic moving horse, I finally got my hands steady. So I know what those moments are like and I don't blame plimsol for being happy. However, I would not have put it on the internet as an example of WONDERFUL and would not have condoned someone else doing it, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    Those martingales were so taut, you could play Ode to Joy on them with a comb


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Indiana
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    Bravo to the rider for coming on this BB and taking in all the negative.

    I agree that it is a reflection of other posters that none of the criticism is constructive or positive yet the justification is that it's a learning experience. This refusal to accept that anything can be good on its own is sad.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Would the OP have posted this video as an example of a wonderful moment without all the name dropping (CdK, Hassler)? I doubt it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    Those martingales were so taut, you could play Ode to Joy on them with a comb


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Mar. 24, 2012
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    tempest in a teapot


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Got it.

    In a 52 second video of a person in a LESSON we have so far said that

    1. I find the horse's gaping mouth troubling.
    2. Constant opening closing of horse's mouth.
    3. Contact not sympathetic.
    4. Hands too high and unlevel
    5. Nothing exceptional going on here
    6. Wouldn't model my own riding on it
    7. Legs too busy, horse not connected
    8. Seat not correct, rider sitting in saddle wrong
    9. Video only posted as wonderful because clinician is famous


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by plimsol View Post
    Ola, Rider here!

    I never held this video up as a moment of my or my horse's fabulousness. It was sent to me from someone I don't know who was videoing the whole clinic. It was a nice gesture. Would I have picked this part of the lesson to highlight- no I wouldn't have. At that point my horse was tired and was losing energy/self carriage and yes the same was true for me. I wasn't as fit as I perhaps I should have been going into the clinic, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity of riding with CDK. The latter has helped me a great deal with just a few lessons. Is is perfect, of course not. But if you had seen the whole lesson and not the last 58 seconds you would know that he created some, and I hesitate 'wonderful' learning experiences for my horse and I. I am striving to improve, it's slow. I am 52 years old, so it aint easy!

    I think MM has great admiration for CDK, as many of us do and there is very little video of CDK teaching out there and so this tiny morsel was enthusiastically pounced upon and quite frankly its not that terrible! Jeesh. I don't have any problem with your criticisms. Although, I think some of them are more a reflection of you than me. My flaws are pretty obvious as are everyone else's. Besides I was riding in an open clinic with a pretty educated crowd and was willing to be seen warts and all.

    I will say one thing tho. My pony is FABULOUS!

    Have a great night all!
    your pony is fabulous, and you are a good sport. I would have blasted MM sky high for putting me in this situation!


    6 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Aug. 25, 2005
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    Northeast
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    plimsol -

    " I don't have any problem with your criticisms. Although, I think some of them are more a reflection of you than me. My flaws are pretty obvious as are everyone else's. Besides I was riding in an open clinic with a pretty educated crowd and was willing to be seen warts and all."

    Plimsoll-Thank you for being so gracious despite the rude attitude of some of the posters here. Several of whom I know are in no way capable of riding that level.
    So take it from whence it cometh!!!
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.


    14 members found this post helpful.

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