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  1. #61
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    Bluey, she does have a point. I know you don't think you sound insulting, but yeah, you do. And being opposite of RARA is just as annoying (to me anyway) - both sides are just screaming, there is no learning or listening to be had.

    (and I wait for the insult cloaked in a lengthy post of personal opinion)


    11 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Are you freaking KIDDING? Anyone and everyone on this board who disagrees with YOU is immediately dismissed out of hand as a RARA, and then shouted into exhaustion by your sheer word output of the SOS. Insults? Honey, you're like a broken record! BTW, it should be a rule on COTH not to take debate personally. . . I only argue for the horses!
    It's useless to argue with "Those Who Shall Not Be Named." Just ignore them, it makes for a much more pleasant conversation.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    7 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    Jan. 25, 2008
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    Vermont
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    Nokotas are, at best, a type. Citing a Wikipedia article does not confirm that they are a legitimate breed. Let's excerpt the article:

    The Nokota horse is a feral and semi-feral horse breed located in the badlands of southwestern North Dakota in the United States. The breed developed in the 19th century from foundation bloodstock consisting of ranch-bred horses produced from the horses of local Native Americans mixed with Spanish horses, Thoroughbreds, harness horses and related breeds.
    That's pretty much the textbook definition of a mustang right there. Mixed breed feral or semi-feral horse of the American west. It's just that a few herds ended up with certain characteristics - which is true of most mustang herds. No one should be breeding more mustangs. They manage that just fine on their own. No one should be breeding large numbers of horses without a plan to feed them. Saying they're a "charity" doesn't excuse them. I have worked in nonprofits my entire professional career, and none of the organizations I've been involved in would consider it normal to end up with a week of supplies left.

    Please understand I'm not saying that calling them mustangs is an insult of any kind. My own horse is a BLM mustang and I love the breed. I think they've become an integral part of American culture and heritage. But I think parsing out these super-special niches in the breed and sneering at the rest of them is detrimental and catty. Call 'em what they are, don't over-breed them, and don't run out of food for them if you're determined to keep several hundred of them.
    An Eventful Life
    beljoeor.blogspot.com


    8 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    NE Indiana
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    Default What makes them any more special?

    Quote Originally Posted by kerlin View Post

    I think they've become an integral part of American culture and heritage.
    This is a comment I hear over and over, but I don't understand why. The horse in general, not just the feral horse or mustang, is part of our culture. I can't figure out how the feral horse factors in at all though, and why it is considered more culturally relavent than any other breed of horse - the Standardbred, Morgan, Quarter Horse?

    The very first organized sport in our history was harness racing, the precurser to horse racing in general - this is pretty significant considering the deep deep history still being made every day! The mustang had nothing to do with it. The horses that carried our troops, that carried pioneers westward, help build our roads and railways....none of these horses were mustangs. They probably eventually became the propegators of the feral horse, but what significance is that? It's an interesting story, but not any more interesting or special to our culture than the horses that came ahead of the feral horse.

    There were also dogs, oxen, donkeys, etc. that are all part of America's past. Feral hogs, feral dogs, cats, etc., none of which get romanticized in the same way, yet they are all descendants of the animals brought from another land and let go here to pocreate in the wild.

    My first horse was a mustang - I love them. If another came into my life again, I'd be thrilled. But not any more than I would be with a TB, Arab or Shetland. I just don't understand the fixation on the feral horse.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Thanks to the poster bringing up the ALBC...they list some dubious "Spanish" breeds, yes, but they also don't advocate preserving heritage breeds by letting anything with gonads reproduce, and a herd of 400+ animals not being culled and controlled is letting anything with gonads breed.

    Also, they live in North Dakota. They had to know...winter is long. It's not responsible livestock management to breed to excess, then go "oops" and beg for donations when you goofed on hay. Last year was horrible for hay crops in a lot of places. That either meant going to extremes last fall to find more hay and bring it in, or getting rid of some mouths.

    And if you are going to post begging for donations, when people ask for very reasonable information about what's being done to control breeding and make sure they aren't left in the same situation again, "Google" and a huff doesn't make people sympathetic.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Apr. 22, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan P View Post
    So why do you ASSUME that they are not DNA tested. www.nokotahorse.org
    I assumed that the information on the Nakota Horse Conservancy website was correct when it stated as much in the article, "Nakota Horse Supporters - ND Legislature." I quote:

    "During the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s, the horse was targeted for removal from the park, andother horse types were brought in for breeding."

    "Castle McLaughlin, a researcher at Harvard University’s Peabody Museum of Archeology and Ethnology, has linked some of the park’s horses as descendants of ponies surrendered by Sitting Bull and his supporters at Fort Buford in 1881. A chain of documentary evidence traces the horses through a sale by post traders to the Marquis des Mores, a contemporary of Roosevelt’s and the founder of Medora, and later to other ranchers in the Badlands.

    The park has refused to manage its horse herd with the goal of preserving the Nokota bloodline, claiming it would require DNA or other scientific evidence linking the park horses to Sitting Bull’s followers.

    Utley, who wrote a biography of Sitting Bull, said the Park Service is demanding scientific evidence to settle a historical question that should be resolved by historical evidence. He finds McLaughlin’s research persuasive.

    “I believe that she has made the connection between the Sitting Bull ponies and the cowboy ponies that have produced the unique Nokota blend,” Utley said in an interview recorded by a member of the Nokota Horse Conservancy."

    "McLaughlin, who also is active with the Nokota Horse Conservancy, said the Park Service’s insistence on genetic evidence is unreasonable."

    Clearly the good Dr. McLaughlin's research is historical research conducted in libraries NOT genetic research conducted in a lab.

    So that's why I assume the Nakotas are not based on DNA typed horses.
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Apr. 22, 2006
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    While I'm already taking a negative view of the farce called the Nakota Horse, can I also say that the pictures I've seen on the breeders websites as well as those I've seen personally (we have a breeder near by) show lots of pretty fugly horses. Are all of them fugly? Of course not. But many, many are just plain old grade horses that have not particular value without their romantic provenance. These are exactly the horses that stripped of their romantic appeal will go directly to the kill buyer. If anyone truly loves them why would they want to create more horses that have nothing going for them that would save them from this fate?
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Mar. 21, 2013
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    TX
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    This is one of the horses that is listed on the for sale page that is being sold through the website. He came from these Nokota people, so I'd imagine there are more like him there somewhere if you flip through them all(not necessarily on the sales page) you'd probably find one like him. IF you find some decent ones, clean them up, then one could assume they'd end up like this one. He really caught my eye.

    http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/c...search_fd0=176

    Also, this one does Eventing:

    http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/c...search_fd0=181

    One more that caught my eye:

    http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/c...search_fd0=151

    So all in all it looks as if there are nice ones, so they definitely are not completely useless IMO.
    Last edited by MonterStables; May. 2, 2013 at 01:34 PM. Reason: add completely



  9. #69
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    It just so happens that I met the Jersey horses when they arrived east. I again met the stud when he came to PA for training and again when he came to DAD when he was perfectly behaved. These are truly wonderful horses. They are extremely good natured and easy.

    One year at DAD the announcer said that the Nokota was voted the best behaved horses at the show. When trained and handled correctly, politely they can be your best dream. My 3 are on a free lease, I just don't have time or energy to care for horses any more but they are very active. In fact my pony recently won his first pace event. My oldest Nokota was competed low level eventing and some dressage and he either would win or place 2nd but was always admired. Breeders turned their heads to comment on him being a good looking horse. They have a lot of admirers in Chester County, PA. We are an aging group.



    Quote Originally Posted by MonterStables View Post
    This is one of the horses that is listed on the for sale page that is being sold through the website. He came from these Nokota people, so I'd imagine there are more like him there somewhere if you flip through them all(not necessarily on the sales page) you'd probably find one like him. IF you find some decent ones, clean them up, then one could assume they'd end up like this one. He really caught my eye.

    http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/c...search_fd0=176

    Also, this one does Eventing:

    http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/c...search_fd0=181

    One more that caught my eye:

    http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/c...search_fd0=151

    So all in all it looks as if there are nice ones, so they definitely are not completely useless IMO.



  10. #70
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Lexington, KY
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    They may be the most wonderful horses in the world, but if there is not a market for them and the owner can't afford to feed them, why on earth do they keep breeding them?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    11 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptownevt View Post
    Clearly the good Dr. McLaughlin's research is historical research conducted in libraries NOT genetic research conducted in a lab.

    So that's why I assume the Nakotas are not based on DNA typed horses.
    If one googles the chick, you get these relevant facts:

    She is Irene Castle McLaughlin.

    She's listed as a curator of ethnography at the Peabody Museum (Harvard's natural history museum) and an anthropologist.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Mar. 21, 2013
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    They may be the most wonderful horses in the world, but if there is not a market for them and the owner can't afford to feed them, why on earth do they keep breeding them?
    I am a FIRM believer that if your horse is the best trained horse out there, people will want it REGARDLESS of breed. I showed an Appaloosa mare in the Hunter/Eq ring( OMG how gastly of me right?) for years. It took us a while to earn the respect of judges and fellow competitors, but once we earned that we were Champion at almost every show and when we weren't champion we were reserve. She beat out Thoroughbreds and several expensive European-imported horses. There isn't too huge of a market for Appaloosas since people have this preconceived notion that all Appaloosas are broom-tailed, mottled skinned horses of no quality whatsoever with bad attitudes.



  13. #73
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    Feb. 25, 2011
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    It seems like these people are trying to establish and promote a breed. It is not an especially valuable breed in my opinion, but if they want to promote it and develop it, great. The thing is, like anyone else raising their favorite breed, they need to plan and be responsible for the horses they have. It is too late now to be bemoaning the lack of hay or money; that should have happened well in advance, like last year and the year before.

    I won't be giving them money; my hands and pocketbook are already busy with the horses I am supporting. If I were working at a rescue, I would have no problem with fundraising for maintenance, but last minute oh-my-god-we're-out-of-hay pleas are an indication of poor management and too many horses.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    San Jose, Ca
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    Soooo..... What is the "Conservatory's" plan now that they are out of hay, with many horses to feed - and no plans to train or sell the horses.

    Seriously!?! WHAT IS THEIR PLAN? - just beg for money and hope donors come up for hay money for this year? Then what? Pray to the heavens for more rain, so their ever growing herd will not starve?

    This is seriously a group to watch - and make sure that these horses do not start suffering as a result of the "conservatory's" poor planning.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
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    Jan. 5, 2012
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    South Carolina
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    How many of those Nokota mares are in foal?

    I'd contribute IF they had a plan to geld most of the studs and pinch off the foals those mares are carrying. I think they need to pass on breeding for several years or more. In nature, if there is not enough food, many animals do not breed. I think perhaps these feral horses don't have their natural instincts and people are merely breeding them willy nilly and producing foals that aren't bred for performance or conformation or anything else except to produce one more Nokota.

    What does "Nokota" mean? Dakota means friend. Lakota was an indian tribe.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #76
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    Nov. 25, 2005
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    I don't care if you are breeding damn unicorns, not realizing you don't have enough hay until there is a week left is NOT okay. Especially not when there are 450 horses and you have been breeding them.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    I don't care if you are breeding damn unicorns, not realizing you don't have enough hay until there is a week left is NOT okay. Especially not when there are 450 horses and you have been breeding them.
    Absolutely. The Japanese have a word for this, and it is "Baka!"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Oct. 8, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptownevt View Post
    But many, many are just plain old grade horses that have not particular value without their romantic provenance. These are exactly the horses that stripped of their romantic appeal will go directly to the kill buyer. If anyone truly loves them why would they want to create more horses that have nothing going for them that would save them from this fate?
    This exactly. I loved seeing the Teddy Roosevelt Park horses roam free but that admiration was a response to equine behavior and a romantic environment. They are not horses that I'd want to keep/train as my own personal horses. I can't imagine these horses appeal more than any other mustang variety to people who don't exoticize/romanticize native American culture or the "wild west".


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  19. #79
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    Jul. 11, 2011
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    There are over 400 horses (many probably foaling this month) and not enough hay?!?

    I hope animal control and the local judge is aware of this situation.

    What a train wreck in ranch management - hopefully those in charge will be replaced with ones that can find a way to keep the herd at a manageable level - they will not get a dime from me!

    An old fashioned horse auction to pay for hay for the rest may be in order.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #80
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    Oct. 8, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy wabbit View Post
    How many of those Nokota mares are in foal?

    What does "Nokota" mean? Dakota means friend. Lakota was an indian tribe.
    Nokota is either a portmanteau from "North + Dakota" OR a variant spelling of "Nakota". Nakota, Lakota, and Dakota are all ethnonyms for Siouxan groups, and all of these words mean essentially "friend".

    If "Nokota" is meant to invoke Nakota Indian heritage, it is a rather disingenuous name, since the Conservancy seems to be trying awfully hard to link these horses to the famous Sitting Bull (who was Lakota, not Nakota).

    This seems nit-picky, but I think it points to the marketing of this "breed" by exoticizing/romanticizing Indian people.


    6 members found this post helpful.

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