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  1. #41
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    Just another instance of irresponsible "puppy-mill" horse breeding; or breeding for the killers, which is what I like to call it.

    NO HORSE should be bred who is not one of the best exemplars of their kind, as proven by PERFORMANCE, not looks or bloodlines alone, and VIABLY destined for a READY MARKET.

    Otherwise, may as well hook 'em up with 7Arabians, Fairfax and Bluey who are cheerleading the NM plant opening up. THESE KINDS OF BREEDING OPERATIONS are WHY that plant is reopening.

    'Nuff said.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Jan. 5, 2012
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    South Carolina
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    OP, how many Nokotas do you actually own AND take care of? How many have you bought hay for this year? Or last year? How much money have you yourself contributed to save these horses in ND and elsewhere? I think when you solicit money for the horses, we have the right to know just how many are on your own land, and how many you yourself take care of. As well as telling us how much money you've contributed in say, the last year or two, to save these horses.

    Soliciting money when you yourself don't take care of any horses or contribute money to the Nokota people should be disclosed to us. Do you actually have any Nokotas on your property that you care for?

    The horses are not a "breed." Unless anyone can start a registry and claim any crossbred is a "breed."
    Wikipedia is not the ultimate source of information.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Lady Eboshi is so right. With the people who apparently enjoy the idea of slaughtering horses cheering the opening of slaughter plants, the Nokota people are just providing more horses to die there.

    There are not enough homes for then all. Too many horses are starving to death everywhere. The Nokota people need to start gelding horses, or they are going to be providing more horses to die in slaughterhouses.

    I feel so sorry for the horses here. Too bad the people who are breeding them don't have to go without food. I bet those people are well-fed and chubby and don't miss a meal.
    Last edited by shezabrazenmare; May. 2, 2013 at 05:46 AM. Reason: typo did not proof read first!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Feb. 20, 2010
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    Honestly, what would be the tragedy is this particular breed or mix or whatever it is went extinct? It's not like a species was going extinct here. If these horses can't "support themselves" (via the horse market, horse owner demand, etc), what's the point of keeping them around?


    11 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Horses are livestock, just like cows, pigs, sheep, etc.

    G.
    Not in my world.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Jun. 7, 2008
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    now in KCMO, and plan to stay there
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    That reference to an ambling gait makes me wonder if some of the ancestors of the breed were Narragansett Pacers, that allegedly went extinct. They were among the progenitors of the American Saddlebred, and it is sad that they disappeared.
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdlbredfan View Post
    That reference to an ambling gait makes me wonder if some of the ancestors of the breed were Narragansett Pacers, that allegedly went extinct. They were among the progenitors of the American Saddlebred, and it is sad that they disappeared.
    More apt to be Galicenos or such old spanish types that have all kinds of such odd gaits.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Just another instance of irresponsible "puppy-mill" horse breeding; or breeding for the killers, which is what I like to call it.

    NO HORSE should be bred who is not one of the best exemplars of their kind, as proven by PERFORMANCE, not looks or bloodlines alone, and VIABLY destined for a READY MARKET.

    Otherwise, may as well hook 'em up with 7Arabians, Fairfax and Bluey who are cheerleading the NM plant opening up. THESE KINDS OF BREEDING OPERATIONS are WHY that plant is reopening.

    'Nuff said.
    Can't you really not abstain from trying to be insulting when you post?

    I wonder how you would feel if others kept picking at you all the time, just because they disagree with what you post?
    Very silly way to converse.

    You manage to dismiss in one short post the right of others to breed what they want to and are dismissing that others may have other ideas than yours.

    While there are no rules about what opinions each one may post, there are rules asking that be done in a civil manner.
    Give it a try, will you?

    Nuff said.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Feb. 10, 2006
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    Middle of Nowhere, take a right, FL
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    If ya can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

    Nuff said...
    Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

    Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Jan. 29, 2010
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    I am a supporter of heritage livestock, however, I think it is difficult to defend managing a breeding herd in such a perilous situation that they only have a week's worth of food I have a friend who breeds Cleveland Bay horses. She has the highest quality breeding stock, ample resources to feed and care for her horses, and she adjusts her breeding plans to match demand. She can also take take back any offspring if needed.

    I don't know enough about the Nakota, but I did find this to be interesting - p.365-366
    http://books.google.com/books?id=WJC...nakota&f=false

    NYT had an interesting article on SVF Foundation in Newport, RI; which is a sperm / embyo bank for heritage livestock- though I do not believe that they do horses.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/di...anted=all&_r=0

    And, ALBC (American Livestock Breeds Conservancy) is another great resource, and they do list horse breeds.
    http://albc-usa.org/
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Oct. 8, 2012
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    I grew up hiking and camping in the Teddy Roosevelt National Park back country and admired the herd there which has presumably now become the foundation stock for these Nokota horses.

    While the TRNP horses were beautiful to behold in the wild, the Nokota "breed" is absurd. The backstory presented on the Nokota Conservancy website draws some very tenuous links between the horses that ended up on Medora-area ranches and the horses captured after the battle at Little Big Horn. Nokota may be just an abbreviation of "North Dakota", but it is also clearly meant to capitalize on the cultural cache/romantic ideal of the Indian pony (cf. Nakota, another name for Assiniboine). In reality, these horses were at least as much rough ranch stock as they were of Spanish colonial/Indian ancestry. The idea that what remained of this wild-roaming ranch stock in the 1980s is a breed is silly -- it's a marketing campaign.

    I would argue that allowing a large herd of horses to breed with minimal management does not honor the legacy of the badlands wild horses. The conservancy's goals of maintaining a sanctuary with "minimal management" and promoting the "breed" both seem misguided. As much as I love the image of horses roaming the badlands, allowing a semi-wild herd to grow bigger than the conservancy can support in bad times is irresponsible. And I've never been a fan of breeding just because an animal has a certain ancestry or coat color. So as much as I respect the Nokota folks for keeping the original TRNP horses out of the slaughterhouses, I think they're fools to breed these horses.

    I wouldn't contribute to any organization that imperils animals through irresponsible breeding and management.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    Honestly, what would be the tragedy is this particular breed or mix or whatever it is went extinct? It's not like a species was going extinct here. If these horses can't "support themselves" (via the horse market, horse owner demand, etc), what's the point of keeping them around?
    I think that's a legitimate question.

    I'm all for preservation (being a professional historian and all), but why this breed of horse that dates back only 200 years? I also understand the politics of preserving a part of American History that people like. But at what cost? Other than keeping horses that match some 1800 phenotype around, why choose that in particular?

    OTOH, people, some geneticists believe TBs as well as types of quarter horses are very inbred. The TB issue is perhaps the less obvious one and there are different mathematical formulae for figuring out the total heterogeneity of the population. Not that Nakotas will be admitted to any TB studbooks soon, but it does make sense to keep some discreet genetic populations around.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Jan. 5, 2012
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    South Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
    Not in my world.
    I totally agree with you. But realistically, most people, including horse breeders, think of them as one more "crop" to be sold or disposed of. So the totally uncontrolled and unregulated breeding of horses has to be stopped. Or breeders will just keep feeding horses into the slaughter pipeline. Most breeders just don't care what happens to the horses after money crosses their palms.

    If the Nokota supporters had thought about this 5 yrs ago, they might not be in this situation. We cannot bail out everyone who continues to breed horses irresponsibly. And it's the horses, not the people who breed them (and who vocally support their breeding such as OP) who end up dead.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Sep. 13, 2000
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    You know I have often wondered why so many people who say they want to support the cause of stopping Horses sent to slaughter, still support breeding like this.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." Caffeinated.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy wabbit View Post
    I totally agree with you. But realistically, most people, including horse breeders, think of them as one more "crop" to be sold or disposed of. So the totally uncontrolled and unregulated breeding of horses has to be stopped. Or breeders will just keep feeding horses into the slaughter pipeline. Most breeders just don't care what happens to the horses after money crosses their palms.

    If the Nokota supporters had thought about this 5 yrs ago, they might not be in this situation. We cannot bail out everyone who continues to breed horses irresponsibly. And it's the horses, not the people who breed them (and who vocally support their breeding such as OP) who end up dead.
    Well, all born, all alive, all of us, including our horses, will end up dead at some time.
    That didn't help your argument any.

    While I agree that any one horse out there can be said is this or that and make a breed out of them and wonder about that, I will support their right to do just that if they want to.

    It is not up to us to say what others need to do.
    Support them if you wish, don't if you don't want to.
    Lets not say others should not do what they want, as long as it is legal, even if that is calling some horses "special".



  16. #56
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    Oct. 14, 2010
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    I have some old bred horses and I didn't buy enough hay to get through the winter. Would somebody PayPal me some money so I can buy hay?

    OP's article in a nutshell.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    In the U.S., unlike some countries, there are no standards for declaring some gather of animals a "breed." So the fact that something is declared a "breed" in some book or by somebody with a lot of letters after their name does not make it so.

    The horse in North America is an "invader species." Native North American horses died out about 15,000 years ago. What we have today is descended from horses the Spanish and other Western nations introduced starting shortly after 1492. The feral horses of North America come from eloped stock, abandoned stock, and released stock. During the Age of Horsepower all three things happened. Sometimes it happened in waves. The last great wave of abandonment and release was in the 1950s as gasoline and diesel finally ended practical equine usage. This replenished many of the herds. They needed "replenishment" because from about 1936 the Kal Kan company was aggressively buying horses on the hoof and turning them into dog food. So the feral horse you see today may well not be some strain of lost Spanish horse but rather the offspring of farm horses turned loose during the Cold War.

    Most of us who own, and like, horses are infected with the virus romancium ab equii. As long as we know we have it and control it we are OK. If we don't "treat" it from time to time it can lead to foolishness.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Oct. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Can't you really not abstain from trying to be insulting when you post?

    I wonder how you would feel if others kept picking at you all the time, just because they disagree with what you post?
    Very silly way to converse.

    You manage to dismiss in one short post the right of others to breed what they want to and are dismissing that others may have other ideas than yours.

    While there are no rules about what opinions each one may post, there are rules asking that be done in a civil manner.
    Give it a try, will you?

    Nuff said.
    Are you freaking KIDDING? Anyone and everyone on this board who disagrees with YOU is immediately dismissed out of hand as a RARA, and then shouted into exhaustion by your sheer word output of the SOS. Insults? Honey, you're like a broken record! BTW, it should be a rule on COTH not to take debate personally. . . I only argue for the horses!


    8 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Are you freaking KIDDING? Anyone and everyone on this board who disagrees with YOU is immediately dismissed out of hand as a RARA, and then shouted into exhaustion by your sheer word output of the SOS. Insults? Honey, you're like a broken record! BTW, it should be a rule on COTH not to take debate personally. . . I only argue for the horses!
    Being cute is ok, being mean, not so much, that was my point, hopefully here a bit more clearly stated.

    Do you really think that anyone is "cheering for slaughter", just because for several very good reasons they don't agree that the animal rights extremist drive to ban slaughter makes sense, considering how our world works?

    There is an important difference in being pragmatic about what the world is and why and "cheering", an important difference.

    Hope that explains my position better.



  20. #60
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    I have some old bred horses and I didn't buy enough hay to get through the winter. Would somebody PayPal me some money so I can buy hay?

    OP's article in a nutshell.
    Bingo.
    Join the Clinton 2016 campaign...Hillary For America. https://www.hillaryclinton.com/


    9 members found this post helpful.

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