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  1. #21
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Horses are livestock, just like cows, pigs, sheep, etc.

    If a herd/flock/gaggle/etc. gets too big to be supported it must be culled. You can can cull by sale, gift, lease, euthanasia, or some combination thereof.

    The assertions of "unique genetics" are pretty thin, but then claims like that get folks open their wallets. Or maybe the teary-eyed HSUS/PETA/ASPCA class commercials common on basic cable.

    Cull the herd so that the feed available will be in sync with the mouths to be fed.

    It may cause some hurt, but like The Dread Pirate Roberts says in "The Princess Bride," "Life is pain; anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something."

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    9 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2001
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    Los Angeles, California
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    3,389

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    It's May. Grass starts coming up in March why are they saying they need to wait until summer?

    Unless the article was old and written by someone who doesn't know horses, something doesn't feel right.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug. 5, 2007
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    1,085

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    North Dakota isn't on the same growing schedule as L A, CA.
    http://www.grazinghandbook.com/bin/ccs6r3.pdf

    "Llewellyn L. Manske PhD, Range Scientist
    Amy M. Kraus, Composition Assistant
    Thomas C. Jirik, Agriculture Communication Editor
    North Dakota State University
    Dickinson Research Extension Center


    Turning livestock onto native range too early in the spring can be costly to producers, says a North Dakota State University range scientist.
    Grazing too early in the season damages plants and limits herbage production by removing leaf area from grass that has not recovered from winter dormancy," says Lee Manske, range scientist at NDSU’s Dickinson Research Extension Center.

    "This damage from early grazing reduces the forage available to livestock later in the season and decreases profits."

    Manske says grass cannot withstand defoliation until it reaches the third-leaf stage, when plants have produced sufficient foliage to support growth. "The arrival of plants at the third-leaf stage is the most reliable indicator that producers can use to determine when grazing may safely begin," he notes. The date on which the third new leaf appears varies by plant type. Most native range cool-season grasses are ready for grazing in early June and warm-season species are ready about two weeks later."


    http://www.grazinghandbook.com/
    So grass maturity for grazing may not be available yet.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
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    16,395

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 View Post
    It's May. Grass starts coming up in March why are they saying they need to wait until summer?.
    Haven't ever lived very far north, have you?

    Here in Northern Colorado, we're JUST starting to see green stuff in the fields.

    I bet in North Dakota you've got to be into mid-June or July to really have anything that will feed a horse full time without supplementing hay, and then only if you've actually got the rain to make stuff grow....


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2008
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    Vermont
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    492

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan P View Post
    Nokota horses are not mustangs.
    Oh, good grief. Yes, they are. So are Kigers. So are Spanish Colonial whatevers. They're all variations on horses that were left to fend for themselves out west and have bred into a feral population. Some of them have been genetically typed to certain lineages; some of them are big question marks; all of them are mutts to varying degrees.

    I have seen a fair number of Nokotas in person and I have yet to see one that would convince me they are so marvelously special that they should be bred in these numbers. Breeding up a huge herd and then throwing yourself at the public's feet asking for money to help feed them is not okay even if the horses in question ARE really fancy and genetically rare.
    An Eventful Life
    beljoeor.blogspot.com


    15 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2004
    Location
    NE Indiana
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    5,530

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    Thank you Kerlin. I honestly didn't know what a Nakota was, assumed it WAS a mustang. And I was right. It's the Gypsy Vanner of North America.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan. 5, 2012
    Location
    South Carolina
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    372

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    Not gypsy vanners, because they don't bring the prices that the vanners do.

    It is sad for the horses as it is still cold winter in the Dakotas. However, the people to blame are those who have bred these horses without doing DNA testing, and with, well, just not thinking ahead. We've been in an economic decline since 2007. And people, not just these Nokota people, but horse breeders everywhere, just keep breeding horses they cannot sell or give away.

    Sad for the horses. But stupid of the people. Nokotas are not a breed, or a registry, and aren't breed for any sport or use. Someone just named some horses Nokotas, and added more horses to that herd and kept on breeding.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2004
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    NE Indiana
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    They're definitely more expensive than your average un-papered horse of uncertain lineage . That won't help their plight AT ALL.

    And it's snowing right now in ND. Stupid, stupid people.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct. 31, 2004
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    By the way, no government agency have ever given a single penny to help preserve this native horse of the Northern Plains and the Honorary State Equine of North Dakota. They stole their land where they were placed by the owner and sold them for slaughter through auctions. It was an uphill battle costing this family so much, time, money and giving up valuable land to keep them. They are not being reimbursed but the Nokota Horse Conservancy (not conservatory) has only in recent years kept their own horses. Prior to that the Kuntz family did it at their own expense while they fought for recognition to get the park to stop selling them at auction. The park ignored requests even after they became the state symbol and now all of the full blood original horses have been removed from the park and only half or part bloods remain. The horses have been well researched by a highly professional researcher, Dr. McLaughlin.

    I've been involved with helping this organization save the remaining horses for over 10 years, oh gosh, even more because my first Nokota is now 19 I think. I got him when he was 4, wow my math stinks and I'm getting so old. That's when I fell in love with them, he's so silly and fun but also sensitive and athletic, smart. When he lived at Fair Hill for 2 years leading trail rides, eventing, some dressage etc. he was a real pet. Now he's just a steady and kind horse, big guy too.

    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    I'll say it again: take the mustangs off the US Govt. payroll and privatize the breed into a regsitry. There's NO reason they should be supoorted by tax payers...and barely being supported at that.

    (ETA)Just realized this is a private operation. My goodness.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    I'll repeat myself, the horses have been DNA tested and well researched. They are breeding to protect the gene pool.

    There are 2 types separately preserved as recommended by Dr. Sponnenberg, the Ranch and Traditional types. There are significantly more Ranch type in the world, not all are being bred. There are probably not more than 200 Traditional (Indian type) left. They have been brought back from near extinction.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    They would reduce the breeding under these circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    Here's the thing, though (and I don't mean to dissuade any donors): when hay supply is non-existent in your vicinity, and you already have over 450 horses, you suspend the breeding operations for a little while, at least until the food supply has stabilized in terms of steady availability. You can still preserve the bloodlines; a year or a few won't matter.

    Just making a point - it is entirely possible that the Conservancy has already taken this measure.



  12. #32
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    those are privately owned horses, not conservancy horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonterStables View Post
    Sounds to me like they're not just breeding willy nilly like the mustangs do. I mean, I've read about this a little bit in the various horse breed books that I have and it never sounds like they're being irresponsible about breeding. Its funny because there is a horse on the for sale page that is for sale for 10k I think that was fourth at Dressage At Devon. He's pretty good looking stallion, and call me silly, but if he's performing at that kind of event at all, he's got to be nice!



  13. #33
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    San Jose, Ca
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan P View Post
    By the way, no government agency have ever given a single penny to help preserve this native horse of the Northern Plains and the Honorary State Equine of North Dakota.
    But there is legislation pushing for the National Park Service to provide "appropriate management" of these horses - on National Park Land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan P View Post
    They stole their land where they were placed by the owner and sold them for slaughter through auctions.
    Wait - the Federal Government stole land from the brothers? The brothers owned land that they put their horses on, and the Feds stole the land and sold the horses - or did the brothers put horses on land that was not theirs - and the government sold the horses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan P View Post
    They would reduce the breeding under these circumstances.
    What are they currently doing to reduce the numbers breeding? Its spring, mares are foaling now and coming into foal heats - they have ONE WEEKS WORTH OF HAY LEFT. Please tell me that all of the stallions have been removed from the herds - have they?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    Anything that you read that has no part of the Nokota Horse Conservancy may have NOTHING to do with the Nokota Horse Conservancy which does not own 450 horses. If they own 200 I would be surprised. Some horses are privately owned by those that run the conservancy and the "horses for sale" is not horses in the conservancy, they are privately owned and this is a way to help owners sell their horses when they choose.

    You can't always predict how each season will turn out and yes some people may breed before they can guarantee the next year. Most charities do hope each year and sometimes each week that they will have funds to survive and pay their bills whatever the charity.



  15. #35
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    May. 16, 2007
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    Ive sent $ before and will send again - always had a soft spot for Indian ponies.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar. 21, 2013
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    TX
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    182

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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy wabbit View Post
    Not gypsy vanners, because they don't bring the prices that the vanners do.

    It is sad for the horses as it is still cold winter in the Dakotas. However, the people to blame are those who have bred these horses without doing DNA testing, and with, well, just not thinking ahead. We've been in an economic decline since 2007. And people, not just these Nokota people, but horse breeders everywhere, just keep breeding horses they cannot sell or give away.

    Sad for the horses. But stupid of the people. Nokotas are not a breed, or a registry, and aren't breed for any sport or use. Someone just named some horses Nokotas, and added more horses to that herd and kept on breeding.
    Nokotas are a legit breed.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokota_horse


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #37
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    So much inaccurate information, all of the original horses have ALREADY been removed and sold from Theodore Roosevelt National Park, they only have crossbred horses now.

    The Nokota Horse Conservancy has NOTHING to do with any government agency, it is operated by volunteers like other animal rescues and sanctuaries that depend on donations. This organization does breed in order to preserve this particular breed and they do it selectively. They use historic documents to select horses to breed and DNA and don't breed except for the purpose of preservation. This doesn't apply to privately owned horses which may be crossbred because they are not part of the organization and may just be bred as quality horses. They are not part of the NHC www.nokotahorse.org

    QUOTE=Appsolute;6967042]But there is legislation pushing for the National Park Service to provide "appropriate management" of these horses - on National Park Land.



    Wait - the Federal Government stole land from the brothers? The brothers owned land that they put their horses on, and the Feds stole the land and sold the horses - or did the brothers put horses on land that was not theirs - and the government sold the horses?



    What are they currently doing to reduce the numbers breeding? Its spring, mares are foaling now and coming into foal heats - they have ONE WEEKS WORTH OF HAY LEFT. Please tell me that all of the stallions have been removed from the herds - have they?[/QUOTE]



  18. #38
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    I don't live in ND and do not routinely monitor the actions of the NHC or the family that cares for the horses.

    To be honest, if you want more information about them you can research, read their web site, Google them or email them. If you just are trying to criticize then I am done participating. I know that there is an element in COTH that loves train wrecks. The NHC is a legitimate 501 (c)(3) with excellent credentials that unlike some dirty organizations the NHC struggles to survive to save these rare, historic American treasures and the government has only fought them, never helped. They did this because they thought it was important. They didn't profit by this effort but it cost them. The few supporters that they have are growing but they aren't given millions of dollars, they may barely get enough and they work very hard and use their personal space for the office and that's all I'm going to say. I didn't ask anyone here to give but I posted the article and mostly I've just read criticism.

    Give or don't give, the only thing that we have to lose are these rare horses. If you want to protect and preserve them and want to help it's your choice, I just shared information.


    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    But there is legislation pushing for the National Park Service to provide "appropriate management" of these horses - on National Park Land.



    Wait - the Federal Government stole land from the brothers? The brothers owned land that they put their horses on, and the Feds stole the land and sold the horses - or did the brothers put horses on land that was not theirs - and the government sold the horses?



    What are they currently doing to reduce the numbers breeding? Its spring, mares are foaling now and coming into foal heats - they have ONE WEEKS WORTH OF HAY LEFT. Please tell me that all of the stallions have been removed from the herds - have they?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    Thanks MonterStables

    Quote Originally Posted by MonterStables View Post



  20. #40
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    Oct. 31, 2004
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    Thanks WIW

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    Ive sent $ before and will send again - always had a soft spot for Indian ponies.



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