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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    It makes me wonder about all of it when they are skirting the issue.

    And makes me seriously wonder about the credibility of those who say they want slaughter to return and be embraced, who insist it will be done better than it was before if we just give them a chance.... but then ignore that the management of the very first new US plant are skirting the very pertinent [in order to make the general public comfortable with the institution of new plants] issues.

    Like it or not the EU says no Bute and a list of other commonly used drugs.
    The EU wants a lifelong drug history starting in July. Of this year.
    That's in 5 weeks.
    And the plan in place to comply with that requirement is...? Silence?

    And the answer to the drugs issue is 'Well what's the big deal about these drugs? There's no proof that they will hurt you.'???
    Seriously?

    That they have said no to these drugs should be enough for any supplier to agree to insure these drugs are not in the meat they sell them, or to not ship them meat if that assurance can not be made.

    The USDA told them to make the kill box bigger, and the response of the management of this plant was to paint it white?
    Seriously?

    I. Don't. Get. It.
    This is the first-new-US-slaughter-plant-basket all the pro-slaughter folks are happily putting their 'we want slaughter to be reinstated in the US and we swear it will be done better than it was in the past' eggs in?
    Good luck with that.

    If I was pro-slaughter I most certainly would not be excited [!!!] that this was the first plant to be restarting the industry here and setting the standard that all the future plants, or the very future of additional plants, would rest on.
    Please provide a USDA report showing there have been no changes to the plant.

    There have been no tours of the facility that are current.

    Lets wait and actually see what the EU does. Last time you jumped the gun..clearly stated NO MORE SLAUGHTER and you were proven wrong.

    No sense in trying to debate your 2007 information.


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  2. #102
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    I was told but have not verified that the problem with Ms Lisa is her activity on the BOD of HSUS and the influence she has brought regarding that position into the political arena.

    If she was to disallow those not for profit groups who oppose HSUS OR groups trying to protect the beef, port, chicken industry since the CEO of the BOD of HSUS is a rabid Vegan..it would appear there COULD be a conflict of interest.


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Bluey posted the link to the IRS Lady Lisa who is a devout follower of HSUS, is on their board, is a vegan who is making a determination as to WHO is able to be a qualified charity. Obviously any group NOT to the liking of HSUS would be grouped with the political TEA party

    Actually I am very well informed politically. I am always shocked (or sometimes not) by the lack of interest most Americans have for the impact of politics. When I read posts on the Tennessee Walking Horse forum with their total lack of knowledge as to the impact of poorly constructed bills and the impact they can have..I understand why their breed is in big time trouble.

    I listen to world news and the impact or lack there of that the current adminishtration has and when I see the wife of the president hobnobbing with Wayne Pacelles wife along with Valerie Jarrett I become very concerned.

    I would suggest you branch out with your sources..they are not found on the first three pages of google...

    I have to go back several pages to find the same Lester report with a couple of add ons included.

    As for the finger pointing..the one I see coming from others is usualy middle finger and in an upward position..my finger pointing just pointed out "the obvious"
    So anyone working for the government who is a vegan and supports HSUS is the basis for a hearing on whether they violated the law ? Wow, that is some strange delusional world you live in. I actually researched the laws of the 501(c)(4) but what do I know, I should just make up some list of PERSONAL information and assume someone is guilty based on that.

    I am truly astounded by the level of knowledge from some posters....



  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    So anyone working for the government who is a vegan and supports HSUS is the basis for a hearing on whether they violated the law ? Wow, that is some strange delusional world you live in. I actually researched the laws of the 501(c)(4) but what do I know, I should just make up some list of PERSONAL information and assume someone is guilty based on that.

    I am truly astounded by the level of knowledge from some posters....
    No, no, no, she's a vegan, supports HSUS and dislikes PORT! See?
    Now it all makes sense, right?
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    So anyone working for the government who is a vegan and supports HSUS is the basis for a hearing on whether they violated the law ? Wow, that is some strange delusional world you live in. I actually researched the laws of the 501(c)(4) but what do I know, I should just make up some list of PERSONAL information and assume someone is guilty based on that.

    I am truly astounded by the level of knowledge from some posters....
    No, somebody in the government who has strong ties to an organization that repeatedly skirts the limits of it's 501c3 status and who is incidentally under investigation for abuse of power in several other cases.
    Why not throw a few other groups under the bus while the trowing is good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    No, no, no, she's a vegan, supports HSUS and dislikes PORT! See?
    Now it all makes sense, right?
    Oh, yes that now makes sense ! I don't know whether to laugh or be very sad that some of these posters actually vote...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by betonbill View Post
    ,

    If I was the one opening up Valley Meats, I would go on record as emphasizing all of the humane changes being made, the up to date renovations, the attempt to keep the actual slaughter process as non-traumatic as possible. I would be giving tours, always emphasizing the humane changes being implemented. I would emphasize the fact that the horses would have a chance to recover with ample water and feed and that any injured animals were immediately put down. I would try to emphasize that every step of the process was carried out as humanely as possible. I would also try to emphasize that the company was trying to produce a safe product free from drugs, and that our requirements in regard to drugs equalled or exceeded the EU requirements, even if the product was going to non-EU markets where requirements were less stringent or nonexistent.
    Exactly! You'd think these places would be shouting from the rooftops on how they plan on doing things the new and improved way. It would make good business sense to convey to the masses that they are operating in a humane matter.
    And as for buteless horses, 100% of the horses I own have had bute, and been de-wormed using product labeled "not to be used on animals slaughtered for human consumption".
    "My doctrine is this, that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt.”
    ― Anna Sewell



  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2013/...hter-plan.html

    Ex-inspector has concerns about horse slaughter plan

    Tue, May 21, 2013




    LAS CRUCES –

    Former U.S. Department of Agriculture inspector and horse race veterinarian Lester Friedlander, who has seen thousands of cows butchered over the years, has major reservations about plans to begin slaughtering horses in a Roswell plant....


    Friedlander, a Pennsylvania resident, traveled to Roswell on Monday to lend his voice to those opposed to Valley Meat Co. owner Rick De Los Santos’ efforts to get the USDA inspections necessary to start up the nation’s first horse slaughterhouse in six years.


    He held a news conference in front of the plant, outlining his reasons for opposing it.


    Among his concerns is whether the horses can be humanely killed in the manner described by De Los Santos. De Los Santos took a Journal reporter on a tour of the plant recently and described the process, which involved shooting a retractable 8-inch-long bolt into the animal’s skull to destroy its brain.
    The horse would then be hung up, stabbed and drained of blood.


    Friedlander also said that because horses are skittish and have longer necks, it is more difficult for slaughterhouse workers to effectively stun the animals with a bolt gun used on cattle.


    Before the last horse slaughtering operations ended in the United States in 2007, there were many examples of horses having to be shot up to seven or eight times, he said.


    Although Friedlander was not an inspector at any horse slaughter plants, he said he bases his statements on his background as a horse veterinarian and on research and studies on the effectiveness of using bolt guns on horses.


    Congress halted funding for mandatory inspections in 2007, effectively closing all horse slaughter operations. The funding was restored for the current fiscal year, opening the door for De Los Santos’ plans.


    Friedlander also said he doubts the claim by De Los Santos that a USDA inspector would be near the factory’s stun box to check whether a horse is unconscious before being stabbed.


    “USDA doesn’t have the luxury or the funding to put an inspector right there at the stunning block,” Friedlander said. “There’s just no inspector there.”


    Improper stunning could leave a horse conscious as it is stabbed and bled out.
    A Valley Meat Co. representative disputed Friedlander, saying the USDA had notified the company that an inspector would be located at that spot.


    “If you have to do it more than once, you cause intense pain, and that’s a violation of the horse slaughter act,” said Friedlander, adding that the humane slaughter law was rarely enforced in the past.


    Valley Meat attorney A. Blair Dunn said that Friedlander is uninformed about Valley Meat’s specific plans and that the company is taking steps to address the concerns of its many opponents, who include Gov. Susana Martinez and most of the state’s congressional delegation. Plans to open the plant have sparked opposition from around the country.


    “Friedlander is making a big deal out of what he knows and applying it to what he hasn’t seen,” Dunn said. “He doesn’t know the inside of this plant. That’s what it really comes down to.”


    Friedlander said three USDA inspectors are typically stationed at a slaughter plant to inspect the head and tongue, the intestines, and finally the carcass of an animal. A USDA veterinarian typically moves about a plant working with inspectors.


    Dunn said USDA officials informed De Los Santos that a federal inspector would be by the stun box. Dunn also argued that the Roswell factory is so compact that a USDA veterinarian would be aware of how effectively, or ineffectively, employees used the bolt gun.


    De Los Santos plans to slaughter about 100 horses a day over a 10-hour period, making it a relatively small operation compared with big beef slaughterhouses.


    Dunn added that De Los Santos has not ruled out an alternative method of putting a horse down – a gun to the head – before the animal is bled out.


    “If that (the bolt gun) is not working, they have the capability to switch to the other. It’s whatever has the best results,” Dunn said.


    As of July 1, the European Union will require a lifetime medical history for horse meat imports, in an effort to keep out substances banned from the food supply. Painkillers commonly given to race horses are banned.


    Friedlander contended that paperwork certifying horses are free of banned substances could be easily faked.


    Dunn said that is the responsibility of companies that would supply Valley Meat with animals for slaughter and, he noted, some countries where horse meat is eaten do not apply European Union standards.


    Dunn said the plant passed the USDA’s inspections, and the grant of inspections could occur any time, pending a Department of Justice review of threatened litigation.


    Animal welfare organizations that include Humane Society of the United States intend to sue to stop the plant, saying its byproducts would threaten water sources.


    Dunn also said Valley Meat is negotiating with several outfits that would supply horses for slaughter.

    If this is even TEN PERCENT true, and I believe it probably is, that's a humane atrocity that is simply unacceptable for ANY species. Let me ask you--how long would you hunt with a guy who regularly took "8 or 9" shots to bring down his deer or elk? You wouldn't, right? In fact, if that was witnessed much the odds are very good he'd be reported to the authorities and his hunting license revoked for incompetence--and that's at RIFLE SHOT range!

    If it's taking more than ONE on ANY kind of a regular basis at POINT-BLANK range, the method is completely unsuitable and another should be employed--WTF is wrong with using a GUN in skilled hands? You might lose a minute and 40 seconds an hour?

    Anything more than one occasional "miss" is as inhumane as clubbing them to death; have we really not evolved since the CAVES?

    Maybe THIS ought to be on "Nightline," eh?


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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    If this is even TEN PERCENT true, and I believe it probably is, that's a humane atrocity that is simply unacceptable for ANY species. Let me ask you--how long would you hunt with a guy who regularly took "8 or 9" shots to bring down his deer or elk? You wouldn't, right? In fact, if that was witnessed much the odds are very good he'd be reported to the authorities and his hunting license revoked for incompetence--and that's at RIFLE SHOT range!

    If it's taking more than ONE on ANY kind of a regular basis at POINT-BLANK range, the method is completely unsuitable and another should be employed--WTF is wrong with using a GUN in skilled hands? You might lose a minute and 40 seconds an hour?

    Anything more than one occasional "miss" is as inhumane as clubbing them to death; have we really not evolved since the CAVES?

    Maybe THIS ought to be on "Nightline," eh?
    Except that was not so, those are part of the myths and propaganda animal rights extremist use.

    The reality, at least in the plant in TX I know about, was that for days there were no misses and if someone was having any more than the rare miss, they were put in another position, that just was not acceptable, not only for humane reasons, but a miss has also other consequences, like bruised meat and slowing down the lines.

    Do you really think that they were happily playing Keystone Kops in there?
    No, that is a place of work and had many regulations to follow and inspectors and managers and foremen and everyone had a job to do right that others depended on.

    Sure, there was the rare time something didn't work right, so it does any other place.

    Of course, to say those were workers doing their jobs well would not bring followers to help fill their coffers with the ban slaughter "cause of the moment".


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  10. #110
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    "Maybe THIS ought to be on "Nightline," eh?"

    Nightline did run a piece on Dallas Crowne years ago (it was a very good piece, BTW). Maybe it raised awareness, maybe it contributed to Dallas Crowne's demise, or maybe it did nothing.

    Barbara Walters has also done reveal pieces on Big Lick TWH and horse tripping, BTW.



  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Except that was not so, those are part of the myths and propaganda animal rights extremist use.

    The reality, at least in the plant in TX I know about, was that for days there were no misses and if someone was having any more than the rare miss, they were put in another position, that just was not acceptable, not only for humane reasons, but a miss has also other consequences, like bruised meat and slowing down the lines.
    Thanks for this, please provide the USDA report confirming this.
    Thanks
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/



  12. #112
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    Truthfully, if you are going to run a business slaughtering animals and make some money, you've GOT TO run that as efficiently as you can. I would imagine (or would hope) that the majority of the kills were clean ones with as little stress as possible. So I can believe this.

    That still leaves the unknown histories of the horses slaughtered, their mode of transport to the plant, the environmental consequences, and the DRUG PROBLEM to be explained away.


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    If this is even TEN PERCENT true, and I believe it probably is, that's a humane atrocity that is simply unacceptable for ANY species. Let me ask you--how long would you hunt with a guy who regularly took "8 or 9" shots to bring down his deer or elk? You wouldn't, right? In fact, if that was witnessed much the odds are very good he'd be reported to the authorities and his hunting license revoked for incompetence--and that's at RIFLE SHOT range!

    If it's taking more than ONE on ANY kind of a regular basis at POINT-BLANK range, the method is completely unsuitable and another should be employed--WTF is wrong with using a GUN in skilled hands? You might lose a minute and 40 seconds an hour?

    Anything more than one occasional "miss" is as inhumane as clubbing them to death; have we really not evolved since the CAVES?

    Maybe THIS ought to be on "Nightline," eh?
    We may not agree on everything LE but I totally agree with that.
    I do not know why it should be either.
    IT is called incompetence right? And I do not know why folks are saying this is not true, Show me why it is not true.
    Like I have said before I am not against slaughter, but hack jobs are unacceptable And if the methods are not working for the equine species,
    and it is to be run like a business then why is it okay? I dare say Cattle slaughter houses would not be running if there were so many repeat hits or misses.
    A gun in an accurate marksman is much more efficient. think of all the time that would be saved, not to mention, stress on the animal that taints the meat.
    That is where me and the pro slaughter folks differ, no one has been able to give me a satisfactory answer and I do not think it has anything to do with the humane society.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  14. #114
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    Some of the cattle plants have been set up by Temple Grandin. They are amazing to watch. The cows can be put down in a very efficient manner and there is much less human handling.
    In one I saw the cows are loaded on a conveyor belt. There's no muss, no fuss and no miss.
    There are Youtube videos out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    We may not agree on everything LE but I totally agree with that.
    I do not know why it should be either.
    IT is called incompetence right? And I do not know why folks are saying this is not true, Show me why it is not true.
    Like I have said before I am not against slaughter, but hack jobs are unacceptable And if the methods are not working for the equine species,
    and it is to be run like a business then why is it okay? I dare say Cattle slaughter houses would not be running if there were so many repeat hits or misses.
    A gun in an accurate marksman is much more efficient. think of all the time that would be saved, not to mention, stress on the animal that taints the meat.
    That is where me and the pro slaughter folks differ, no one has been able to give me a satisfactory answer and I do not think it has anything to do with the humane society.


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    The origins of 501(c)(4) are from the Revenue Act of 1913 which created a new group of TAX EXEMPT organizations dedicated to social welfare.

    Not sure what tax laws Laura can cite for her personal interpretation of tax law....

    Edit: It is 501(c)(4) that allows civic leagues and groups devoted to social welfare exclusively to be allowed tax exempt status. Again political groups would not qualify.
    Decided to pick a fight with me? Maybe you should be more informed as well.

    From the IRS Guidelines on 501(c)4:
    "To be operated exclusively to promote social welfare, an organization must operate primarily to further the common good and general welfare of the people of the community." Methinks they need a dictionary...exclusively =/= primarily.

    http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-P...-Organizations

    And there's a lawsuit to force the IRS to obey the law...

    "Today, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) filed a lawsuit against the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) in United States District Court for the District of Columbia to compel the agency to initiate a rulemaking procedure to address serious conflicts between the Tax Code’s requirements for section 501(c)(4) groups and implementing IRS regulations. Current IRS regulations grant tax-exempt status under section 501(c)(4) of the Tax Code to groups “primarily engaged” in promoting social welfare. The tax laws, however, require such groups to be “operated exclusively” for social welfare purposes."

    http://www.fiercegovernmentit.com/pr...g-501c4-groups
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  16. #116
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    Which is what I posted Laura.

    Trying to pick a fight with me, then try and read for comprehension. That change in language currently used by the IRS was never approved by anyone other than the IRS. Yes, the law as written needs to be followed, problem solved. However, that would still not allow Tea Party organizations to be tax exempt.


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Some of the cattle plants have been set up by Temple Grandin. They are amazing to watch. The cows can be put down in a very efficient manner and there is much less human handling.
    In one I saw the cows are loaded on a conveyor belt. There's no muss, no fuss and no miss.
    There are Youtube videos out there.
    I saw that one too, Never knew what hit them. Totally efficient and calm.
    I have to ask whomever above said that we do not know what the NM plant looks like on the inside. IIRC when the article first came out there was a short Video of the plant, it was clean, but they showed the kill box and the stun bolt and it looked like all the cattle set ups.
    Please someone, I am not a bleeding heart, but looking at this from an efficient business perspective Why are they not making changes to make it possible to do horses as effectively?
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I saw that one too, Never knew what hit them. Totally efficient and calm.
    I have to ask whomever above said that we do not know what the NM plant looks like on the inside. IIRC when the article first came out there was a short Video of the plant, it was clean, but they showed the kill box and the stun bolt and it looked like all the cattle set ups.
    Please someone, I am not a bleeding heart, but looking at this from an efficient business perspective Why are they not making changes to make it possible to do horses as effectively?
    I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that there was a video/pictures of this plant after the owner had "made improvements".

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


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  19. #119
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    Anthropomorphism at its finest!!! Angela Freda is claiming that because she has had 3 concussions, bolt guns should be banned. Wow, just wow. Are you serious? You're saying no animal should be slaughtered because they feel pain in their foreheads? I am amazed that the 2 greatest countries, the U.S. and Canada are comprised of people with such faulty logic. Please, Angela, you might want to have an M.D. give you a check-up now that all the info about damage from concussions has recently hit the headlines!


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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7arabians View Post
    Anthropomorphism at its finest!!! Angela Freda is claiming that because she has had 3 concussions, bolt guns should be banned. Wow, just wow. Are you serious? You're saying no animal should be slaughtered because they feel pain in their foreheads? I am amazed that the 2 greatest countries, the U.S. and Canada are comprised of people with such faulty logic. Please, Angela, you might want to have an M.D. give you a check-up now that all the info about damage from concussions has recently hit the headlines!
    I am not sure what you can't understand, I am not stating they should be banned, The method works on Cattle, The problem is ineffective use,
    I think you are trying to piss people off, when it helps neither side.
    I have read enough of Temple Grandins reports and seen her videos that IT is not a stretch to see The Cattle method is not as efficient on equines.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



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