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  1. #221

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    and remember this is what is reported to the IRS. So you also have to rely on the reporting person being accurate . How many donations dont show on the books?


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  2. #222
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    I'd been wondering where TF all those minis were coming from that go through Camelot; that "breeding program" is just SO wrong.


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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hippolyta View Post
    "expenses" also include whatever salary they choose to pay themselves.
    Salaries should be reported on the 990.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


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  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by uphill View Post
    Does anyone think that KB who signed off on the paperwork ( link provided in posts above) should be prosecuted for lying...how can he say horses haven't had drugs for 60 days or not been exposed to communicable diseases...when he owns them for a week!

    There's a loophole in the paperwork. If you look at the canadian documents that the dealers/shippers sign, it says "in the last 60 days or while I've owned the horse" and "to the best of my knowledge"
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.



  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated View Post
    Salaries should be reported on the 990.
    Yes, if they are considered "salary".
    There are plenty of ways around that: "reimbursements"- for mileage, for items supposedly purchased with private money for which the nonprofit reimburses them for, etc.
    And, as others mentioned, rent. Is the nonprofit "renting" office space in a home? Is it "renting" land, vehicle useage, equipment useage, etc., from a private party?
    Or repaying "advertising (including computer usage for posting)", feed or bedding expenses at a higher rate than the original purchase?

    And of course, it would be interesting to see who actually owns the vehicles, etc. they use for personal use; them or the nonprofit? Quite common to see nonprofits buy nice vehicles which end up mostly used for other purposes.

    It is quite easy to bury payments to onself in the expense catagory with a little imagination.


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  6. #226
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    double post. Why won't it delete??



  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassysmom View Post
    and remember this is what is reported to the IRS. So you also have to rely on the reporting person being accurate . How many donations dont show on the books?
    anyone who has seen the tools available to auditors (state Fed etc) knows that they are very adept at finding the money.

    Looking at the tax returns my guess is that the IRS wants their cut - ie there is no income going to the owner of the org so how can she live?

    So my guess is tax fraud. and they dont play nice.

    i have a side question: how can they be paying upwards of 50,000 a MONTH to purchase horses? how many horses would that buy?

    also look at the feed bills... around 3 k a month. how many horses would that feed?


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  8. #228
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    also, no wonder there are so many rescues = 800k a year is not chump change!



  9. #229
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    Yeah but how many are bringing in that kind of money? And they way ac4h operates, most of that money goes straight out the door again to the brokers.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


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  10. #230
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Regarding minis, they're also just popular with people with small lots or who've never had horses, have little kids, think a "pony" would be cute, or worse figure they can get a few, breed them because a baby would be cute...and then find out they're not dogs with hooves. I would guess AC4H has a lot because they basically CAN'T get shipped--they're not worth gas it costs to haul them. People dump 'em and even the KBs have a limited market for them. But except maybe a few, I would bet the same kind of people would be taking them from AC4H--"Aw, it's cute, let's save it....oh crap."



  11. #231
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    how many horses would 50k purchase? assume each horse cost 250 that means they are buying 200 horses a month.... really? how are they feeding those 200 horses when all they have is one barn and only pay 2k in feed bills?

    my guess is that that is where they are getting their money for living expenses and hopefully the IRS is bright enough to figure that out.


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  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    how many horses would 50k purchase? assume each horse cost 250 that means they are buying 200 horses a month.... really? how are they feeding those 200 horses when all they have is one barn and only pay 2k in feed bills?
    That's the thing - if the program works exactly as advertised (I'm making no comment, but let's assume all the money donated is going where it's supposed to, etc), this isn't necessarily so out there. They are getting money donated to them to buy horses who are housed and being fed by the brokers. Once it's all in, they buy the horses in bulk (let's assume they're paying the full price they advertise on their site, so it's more like around $500-600 on average, and there are 20-30 horses on there per week). They only actually "own" the horses for a day or so while the pickups are getting organized - so there aren't really any care expenses associated with them.

    Actual horses that the rescue actually owns that they actually have to feed number much fewer.

    I'm trying to reserve judgement, but I do think there's a lot of confusion about this program, and just wanted to point out that even if it is above board and there's no question about where the money is going, you could conceivably see these kinds of expenses.

    Now, it would be very easy, when dealing with those kinds of numbers and the unknown price markup and unknown arrangements between parties, for some of this money to end up where it's not supposed to end up. But that's for the FBI to figure out. In the meantime, CBI will just have to speculate.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


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  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    how many horses would 50k purchase? assume each horse cost 250 that means they are buying 200 horses a month.... really? how are they feeding those 200 horses when all they have is one barn and only pay 2k in feed bills?

    my guess is that that is where they are getting their money for living expenses and hopefully the IRS is bright enough to figure that out.
    The way I understand it from some of the "incidents" mentioned in the past is that they don't "buy" a "broker" horse until it has somewhere to go, immediately.

    As I understood it, they post a horse, collect "donations", then when the horse finally has a place to go they "buy" it from the KB (because he doesn't want to deal with the people).
    The horse leaves immediately, so there is little/no feed, etc. on the broker horses: only those in the "actual" rescue portion require that expense.

    The ownership of the "broker" horses is what is puzzling: sometimes they say they buy them and resell to the new owner to keep the KB out of the mix.

    However, when some people have complained about injury, etc., they were told ac4H never owns the horses, they are simply a listing service (for a small fee, of course) who transfers the $$ to the KB immediately, and the sale is actually between the KB and new owner, with the rescue simply an uninterested intermediary to the transaction. So which is it this time?

    In addition, I would love to see their paperwork and how a rescue can also broker horses: I think the IRS and Feds may argue unrelated business income, which would be taxable.


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  14. #234
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    Jul. 2, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    As much as I hate to agree with Fairfax, there will be many ASB's with real identities that will never get pulled. She pulled them FOR the rescue group. I have horses out there that I've sold and AC4H's was one of my watches along with Camelot. More Saddlebreds will be dead is what I see, unless they go to the Amish. I will with hold my judgement until ALL the facts are presented.
    Dont think the Amish are great animal lovers. Isnt it conveniet that NH is located where it is: in the middle of Amish country. When they're through with them, they go to sale.


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  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i have a side question: how can they be paying upwards of 50,000 a MONTH to purchase horses? how many horses would that buy?

    also look at the feed bills... around 3 k a month. how many horses would that feed?
    Clearly, cough cough, 3K worth of feed takes care of 50K worth of horses.


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  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated View Post
    Salaries should be reported on the 990.

    don't be silly. If they declare they're being paid a salary, they'd have to pay taxes on it. Now here's another thought. If they have no reportable income, do they also get welfare assistance or foodstamps?


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  17. #237
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    Feb. 7, 2008
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    3K in feed? Oh yeah, right. They buy a couple hundred $$s worth of grain a month if that [usually only grain the old ones] and they buy moldy hay mostly at hay auctions. Big squares that they throw in hay feeders outside or shove down the chute under the barn. I can’t tell you how much mold I’ve peeled away from those bales.
    The horse I bet on was so slow, the jockey kept a diary of the trip.
    Henny Youngman


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  18. #238
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    For all the horses they are buying/trading/whatevs every month, are there really THAT many horses around to support this claim? Somewhere above, someone wrote ACHG (whatever) spent $81K in a month on horses. That's a lot of horses, even at $500 per. If they are buying for cheaper that's a lot MORE horses. There are that many horses going through the sales each and ever month? Or are the horses recycled back through, over and over?
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  19. #239

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    I think recycling happens. I know of at least one pair of horses that showed up on the AC4H broker list multiple times and I've heard of other stories like that. And New Holland is a big auction, I've been out there once and there were quite a lot of horses there and it runs every week.
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.


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  20. #240
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    Sunridge, I know it's a shame that ASB may now slip through the cracks, but the reason they were being pulled out was because there was a market for them - Save the poor Saddlebred! As someone else already pointed out there are eyes at NH and Sugarcreek at every auction - they just didn't have this incestous relationship with the KB.

    As I think about it this may be a case of messiah complex on the part of AC4H more than fraud with forethought. It's too easy to start getting grey with your books if you think you are doing the "right thing". Or not. Needless to say the IRS plays hardball. They only bring flowers to your funeral.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


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