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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky munky View Post
    Pretty sure that the buyer could have spoken to seller if they wanted. This was a trainer owned pony. Usually all pros know what the other guy is making. Nothing to see here, folks, keep moving along.
    No way in hell that would ever be allowed to happen. Plus owner #1, trainer/possible owner #2, and trainer #3 would have let agent #1 know about her naughty clients.


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  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky munky View Post
    Pretty sure that the buyer could have spoken to seller if they wanted. This was a trainer owned pony. Usually all pros know what the other guy is making. Nothing to see here, folks, keep moving along.
    Oh I'm sure all the pros involved here know what each other is making. The PO on the other hand...
    Visit my website @ http://hihorsefarm.tripod.com (PONIES!)
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    It IS notable that the seller is not named. However, complaints CAN be amended to name additional defendants...who knows if that will be warranted here or not.
    If I were in this woman's position, I would name the seller, not because I would intend to discredit him/her but to potentially find out how much THEY made on the sale. It could be far less than the current owner thought they made. If it's established that the seller made (say, this is hypothetical) $100k and that 75k of the price paid was commissions, then a judge or jury might be inclined to find the trainer she dealt with to be "shady." Makes me wonder if the complainant even knows from whom she bought the pony.
    F O.B
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    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


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  4. #244
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    Oct. 29, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    IIRC, the vet who was supposed to have injected Wild Eyed and Wicked with cobra venom was quite famous in Kentucky for being able to "resolve" lamenesses for horses from many disciplines. From what I remember from that thread, cobra venom and cone snail toxin are a form of untestable chemical nerving with long lasting effects. But they do wear off.

    The racing industry was trying to develop tests for them, but I'm not sure if they ever did.

    We all know of vets in the world of show horses who are magicians with needles.

    Which leads to one of the flaws in the current lawsuit. I'd have chosen to add the sellers, going back as far as necessary, simply because a Dr. Feelgood might have been at work before the current defendants were involved. I would assume that the plaintiff could sue them based on their disclosures or non-disclosure to plaintiff's agent. Florida horse law, I think, is far more stringent on disclosure requirements than the law in many states. And if the sale was being negotiated in Florida, one could use Florida law to one's advantage--one would suppose.

    It's just as possible that Heritage Farms was appalled if such a thing happened and they suddenly had to manage a very foot sore pony.
    No, Plaintiff cannot sue people willy nilly (Well, I guess that Plaintiff can do anything she wants, but the prior owner(s) of said pony would bring a motion to quash the complaint as against them.)

    If prior owners were somehow responsible (in whole or in part) for the loss that Plaintiff alleges she suffered, then current defendants will bring those earlier responsible parties into this lawsuit through a device called Interpleader. ("If I am guilty of selling a foundered horse, it isn't really my fault. [Prior Owner] sold him to me that way, and I never knew he was foundered. So, [Prior Owner} should have to pay for whatever judgment is entered against me.")
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


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  5. #245
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    Jun. 20, 2000
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    I am most sorry for the pony, and his breeder. I was kind of sorry for the kid, until I read this line in the NY Post article, "She has four other ponies in addition to Sports Talk valued at more than $500,000, her mother said." Right about then I stopped feeling sorry for the mom and stopped believing that she was naive. She has to be saavy enough about PPE; she's bought 4 other high $$ ponies.

    What I CAN see happening is that her trainers added $20K to the 1st pony's price and when no complaint was made, each additional pony had more and more price inflation built in and unfortunately Sports Talk didn't stay sound.

    I've been in this business a long time but one of the first catch phrases I learned was "There are two kinds of ponies in this world. Ponies that HAVE foundered and ponies that WILL founder."
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    I've been in this business a long time but one of the first catch phrases I learned was "There are two kinds of ponies in this world. Ponies that HAVE foundered and ponies that WILL founder."
    Then you can divide those groups further into "ponies that showed for another 20 years after they foundered" and "ponies that only showed for another 15 years."


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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    I am most sorry for the pony, and his breeder. I was kind of sorry for the kid, until I read this line in the NY Post article, "She has four other ponies in addition to Sports Talk valued at more than $500,000, her mother said." Right about then I stopped feeling sorry for the mom and stopped believing that she was naive. She has to be saavy enough about PPE; she's bought 4 other high $$ ponies.
    Four expensive ponies does not a horsewoman make.

    Just saying...I have no problem believing a pony mom could sign a check on a trainer's recommendation a bunch of times and still not have any knowledge of horses, the business, soundness, or even what goes in to a PPE.


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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky munky View Post
    Pretty sure that the buyer could have spoken to seller if they wanted. This was a trainer owned pony. Usually all pros know what the other guy is making.
    Do you infer that Lane Change farm owned the pony from the complaint?

    If they screwed up Griffith's status as agent (she didn't buy the pony on behalf of the client), then it's possible that Lane Change Farm was also acting as an agent. They sold the pony on someone else's behalf.

    I don't see what that makes a difference since the client's interests were supposed to be protected by the PPE and (apparently), the trainer's advice following the results of the PPE.

    In other words, it was the vet's job to make sure that everyone on "the other side" of the client--- seller, seller's agents, even buyer's trainers-- weren't pulling any wool over the buyer's eyes. I think the trainer's input on the PPE and having found the pony/brokered the deal implicates her in the scam, at least in the buyer's/plaintiff's eyes.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    If I were in this woman's position, I would name the seller, not because I would intend to discredit him/her but to potentially find out how much THEY made on the sale. It could be far less than the current owner thought they made. If it's established that the seller made (say, this is hypothetical) $100k and that 75k of the price paid was commissions, then a judge or jury might be inclined to find the trainer she dealt with to be "shady." Makes me wonder if the complainant even knows from whom she bought the pony.
    No offense, but it's not illegal to be "shady." If you want to claim someone broke the law and did damage to you that needs to be repaired, you need to cite the law and the harm done. That's why all of the stuff about NY State Law regarding fraud about the merchantability of something bought is in the complaint.

    I don't think the plaintiff has to know who owned the pony or what price-padding was done. Or rather, that might be a different complaint. I think it would be harder to litigate.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    If prior owners were somehow responsible (in whole or in part) for the loss that Plaintiff alleges she suffered, then current defendants will bring those earlier responsible parties into this lawsuit through a device called Interpleader. ("If I am guilty of selling a foundered horse, it isn't really my fault. [Prior Owner] sold him to me that way, and I never knew he was foundered. So, [Prior Owner} should have to pay for whatever judgment is entered against me.")
    You put it better than I did.

    The plaintiff's beef is with the experts whom she paid for their evaluation of the pony and who misled her.

    If someone misled the experts, they get to duke it out with them. That's not the plaintiff's problem.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rel6 View Post
    Four expensive ponies does not a horsewoman make.

    Just saying...I have no problem believing a pony mom could sign a check on a trainer's recommendation a bunch of times and still not have any knowledge of horses, the business, soundness, or even what goes in to a PPE.
    And that's why this suit is important. IMO, trainers press clients to get stupid and obedient. Clients should resist and usually don't, so the trend continues.

    If this suit made trainers and vets more diligent about putting the client in direct communication with the vet-- at a PPE at least-- that would be a great outcome for our industry.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  12. #252
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    Nov. 13, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    If I were in this woman's position, I would name the seller, not because I would intend to discredit him/her but to potentially find out how much THEY made on the sale. It could be far less than the current owner thought they made. If it's established that the seller made (say, this is hypothetical) $100k and that 75k of the price paid was commissions, then a judge or jury might be inclined to find the trainer she dealt with to be "shady." Makes me wonder if the complainant even knows from whom she bought the pony.
    You can obtain discovery from nonparties. There is no need to name everyone that might have information about something in the complaint. Naming people as defendants without sufficient grounds to do so can result in sanctions.


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  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    I am most sorry for the pony, and his breeder. I was kind of sorry for the kid,
    I'm with you re the pony IF some of the things discussed here are correct. However according to the horse pro page, he is now retired to a pasture - with a grazing muzzle. This pony won't be showing again from the sounds of it.
    I dont understand why you feel sorry for the breeder??? They sold the pony at some age, for a price appropriate for its level of training. Probably nowhere near $175,000, but on the other hand, those breeders know what the market is if the pony is a winner; its their choice to keep and campaign or sell as a youngster.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



  14. #254
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    Sep. 12, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Then you can divide those groups further into "ponies that showed for another 20 years after they foundered" and "ponies that only showed for another 15 years."
    how about the ones who have to be retired or can't take the pounding of the show circuit? or those who have basically lost all value? I think alot of you are discounting this situation and basically saying oh he will be fine, when I have seen all too often the pain and suffering they are going through during an episode of founder, and have personally known ponies who had to be retired at a young age. Its not a minor thing... yes most ponies are prone to it, doesn't mean it happens to every pony out there, especially those in a good A circuit program, i'd expect them to be far better managed than that.


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  15. #255
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    Jan. 23, 2013
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    Not ALL ponies founder. And not all ponies are going to founder.

    Where I believe the plaintiff screwed up was by not filing in the state of Florida. All parties involved were in Florida. Trial, PPE, and purchase transaction was completed in Florida. Florida has some of the strongest commission transparency laws.

    In this day and age of technology and social media it baffles me that sellers and potential buyers continue to not get edjumacated and feign ignorance. Hell, a run of this ponies record tells a lot of the story.



  16. #256
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    Feb. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    I am most sorry for the pony, and his breeder. I was kind of sorry for the kid, until I read this line in the NY Post article, "She has four other ponies in addition to Sports Talk valued at more than $500,000, her mother said." Right about then I stopped feeling sorry for the mom and stopped believing that she was naive. She has to be saavy enough about PPE; she's bought 4 other high $$ ponies.

    What I CAN see happening is that her trainers added $20K to the 1st pony's price and when no complaint was made, each additional pony had more and more price inflation built in and unfortunately Sports Talk didn't stay sound.

    I've been in this business a long time but one of the first catch phrases I learned was "There are two kinds of ponies in this world. Ponies that HAVE foundered and ponies that WILL founder."
    I feel sorry for the child regardless of how many ponies she has. She had to understand what this pony was put through in order to compete at Pony Finals ("torture") The block/nerving had been ordered by someone who should be advocating that "the horse comes first" and watching out for the safety of this small pony rider. Those are lessons that will probably taint the rest of her riding career.


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  17. #257
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    You know, screwing people on commissions aside, taking "advantage" of a pony mom.... whatever. Rich people problems are not something I worry about. They didn't get rich by being naive.

    What is gross is if the pony was actually being blocked to be ridden. I hope that is an untrue part of the story. Screw people out of money all you want, but don't abuse animals and don't put kids at risk of being hurt. I'm going to assume that is not what happened because I'd like to believe that successful HJ trainers have a modicum of horsemanship and love for the animals.

    But really... this sport is becoming some kind of a joke more and more.


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  18. #258
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    Also, doesn't one of the favorite doping tricks, Dex, increase the likelihood of foundering?


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  19. #259
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    Feb. 10, 2012
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    To have to retire a pony at what, age 8(?), because of founder issues that should have been dealt with by any educated owner before any rotation occurred is sick. Many years ago, a pony I was buying was foundering literally as the vet arrived to do ppe. Gave him aggressive treatment medically as well as having pony spend a lot of time standing in a cold brook. X-rays before and after showed no rotation. We bought the pony, showed him for many years ( managed his grazing/ feed), sold him with clean x-rays and he went on until he was nearly 20. At that time he foundered again and was euthanized. Founder does not have to end a ponys career as long as the people caring for him pay attention.
    If this pony had rotation during the ppe, I'd have big issues with the seller who must have gone to some lengths to mask any associated lameness.
    The vet and trainer involved, well there was definitely a lack of transparency and I'd have issues with that too.



  20. #260
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    USEF Recording;
    SPORTS TALK (5217036)
    Foal Date: 5/14/2006
    Breed: WELSH PONY
    Color: Bay Sex: G
    Sire: ROSMEL'S DRESSED IN SCARLET
    Dam: ROSMEL'S JAZZY JOLENE
    Membership Type: Life
    Measurement Card
    Height: 12.2
    Heel: 1
    Breed Registry Information:
    LOAFERS LODGE JAZZY JOE (H7100) - WPCSA
    Horse Report
    FRANCESCA DILDABANIAN
    NEW YORK, NY
    Owner ID:5092141
    Active Member - Junior

    Breeder: ALMOND, JOHN
    Last edited by Moderator 1; May. 11, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



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