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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilitiger2 View Post
    So, obviously, this is not exactly Montana ranch horse domain! And I am still trying to wrap my head around $175k for a pony, but...just out of curiousity, what happens, most likely, to the pony? He sure is cute.
    I think, with proper maintenance, he will probably continue showing either at the same level or as a short stirrup pony. As others have stated, plenty of horses do just fine with some rotation if they're well-maintained.



  2. #202
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    Thanks, hope he does have a comfortable future!


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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    Just read the complaint. No idea if what is in it is true or not, but I can say that it certainly doesn't appear to have been drafted by a hack. A lot of the redundancy has to do with needing to plead things very specifically for specific counts in the complaint (and against each defendant).
    Really? Maybe that's the standard, but I found it inartful. 3/4 of the way through, now the pony is not "gentle" (PP 67)? WTF? Oh, and then Andre (*not* a named Plaintiff) appears, as if by magic in PP 70?

    The whole thing reads to me as a cudgel to get a settlement.

    Which is not to say that there aren't crooks in the horse world, or folks who will misrepresent things to clients in order to make money... And I certainly would want to know that a 6 year old $175K pony I'd bought as an "investment" didn't have the cleanest xrays on the planet, but... IMO, there's a whole 'nother side to this one.

    Predictive reading of radiographs is still more art than science. I'll be interested to hear how this one progresses (if it does).

    <ETA> YMMV </ETA>


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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    You DONT think it should be laid out objectively for the client?! Seriously? God forbid clients make their own decisions. I mean, they're only the ones paying for the horse!

    Its not the trainer's job to interpret for the client. Its the VETS job to present the information in a manner that the client will understand. Its called client communication.

    If the client would then like an additional opinion on the future soundness of the horse for its given job, they can then consult the trainer. But, IMO, the trainer should in no way "filter" the information. That is totally not their place. I don't care how much experience they have, the trainer is only giving an opinion.

    If the client is really uncomfortable making the decision and wants to go with whatever their more-knowledgable trainer believes is best, fine. But that should occur after they have actually heard it straight from the vet's mouth and heard the information presented in the most objective form possible.
    That makes total sense... For "normal" people


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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by paw View Post
    Really? Maybe that's the standard, but I found it inartful. 3/4 of the way through, now the pony is not "gentle" (PP 67)? WTF? Oh, and then Andre (*not* a named Plaintiff) appears, as if by magic in PP 70?
    I noticed that, too.

    And man, is it a discount law firm that would prepare a document with so many typos in it?


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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    I noticed that, too.

    And man, is it a discount law firm that would prepare a document with so many typos in it?
    You might be surprised how typical that is, in general.

    I agree it's not a well-drafted complaint. I will excuse part of it to whatever NY custom there might be (we don't really draft that way in PA) as well as some horsey things being lost in translation to a non-horsey drafter... but yes, it's also not a model of clarity/polish.
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  7. #207
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    I definitely agree that it was a bit sloppy and that it could have been better written. It's not how I would draft a complaint, but it is by no stretch of the imagination the worst example of a complaint I've ever seen. It gets the job done, and, honestly, I have seen plenty that do not. It's been my experience that a lot of state court complaints look something like this and are a little rougher than what I am used to in federal court. So, for what it is, I did not find it to be a bad complaint. Some of them are so bad they are difficult to even answer. I call that the "dazzle them with confusion" approach.


    Quote Originally Posted by paw View Post
    Really? Maybe that's the standard, but I found it inartful. 3/4 of the way through, now the pony is not "gentle" (PP 67)? WTF? Oh, and then Andre (*not* a named Plaintiff) appears, as if by magic in PP 70?

    The whole thing reads to me as a cudgel to get a settlement.

    Which is not to say that there aren't crooks in the horse world, or folks who will misrepresent things to clients in order to make money... And I certainly would want to know that a 6 year old $175K pony I'd bought as an "investment" didn't have the cleanest xrays on the planet, but... IMO, there's a whole 'nother side to this one.

    Predictive reading of radiographs is still more art than science. I'll be interested to hear how this one progresses (if it does).

    <ETA> YMMV </ETA>


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  8. #208
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    Sep. 12, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    I think, with proper maintenance, he will probably continue showing either at the same level or as a short stirrup pony. As others have stated, plenty of horses do just fine with some rotation if they're well-maintained.
    it truly depends entirely on the degree of rotation and to date, we don't know that. Yes lots of ponies have foundered and with a little maintenance are not lame and can be kept comfortable but we had a pony on trial who was just ever so off one direction at the trot, just sooo slight we could have easily missed it, just on the turns and only to the left. Turned out to have a career ending degree of rotation when we xrayed him.

    So... unless we know how bad the rotation is, there is no way to judge just how serviceably sound he is. Given that he is a young pony, I hope for his sake that he will be usable if only as a ss or walk trot pony, but he will also be able to find a home as a companion, or leadline pony I'm sure. No way no matter how slight the rotation, you're getting anywhere near 175K for him, that is one thing I know for sure.


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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    Interesting that Emil owns the pony until the week the kid buys her and then he's owned by Bibby. And purchased through Larry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    There were obviously multiple fingers in the pie here regarding the sale of the pony, but I'm VERY skeptical that any of the above misrepresented the pony in any way.
    Why do you suppose it changed hands like that?
    *****
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  10. #210
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    Apr. 21, 2009
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    Originally Posted by RockinHorse
    Bolding mine...

    First of all, unless you are the one buying the animal, I don't think it matters what you are willing to look past. It matters what the BUYER is willing to look past.

    Second, personally, I think that conversations and education to determine what a buyer's comfort level with PPE findings and maintenance etc, should happen well before a PPE is performed. If a buyer is looking for an older schoolmaster, it makes sense to me to have those discussions well before hand to make sure the buyers objectives and budget are realistic. If this occurs, then hearing the findings from the vet should not be too much for the client.


    Since I couldn't figure out any other way to copy and paste that...

    Of course I meant I am comfortable on behalf of my client. My client pays me for my expertise and experience with such matters. I am the one who helps them come up with a program for maintenance on their animal. If the client was 100% able to make these decisions on their own, then that that is 100% fine with me and I don't need to charge them and they can train themselves! Most of the time my clients fall someplace in between knowing nothing and being able to train themselves. They generally appreciate my knowledge of caring for horses and finding them something suitable for their needs- thus why they train with me :-)



  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    Why do you suppose it changed hands like that?
    I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that probably 100+ horses are sold through the barn a month, and obviously some have their own unique ownership situations. Some of them don't ever step foot on the barn property before they're already sold.

    Perhaps Bibby got a deal on the pony and flipped it right away? None of us know for certain, and none of us have any reason to assume it was anything nefarious.


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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    The complaint actually alleges that each of the defendants (farm, trainer, and vet) represented to the plaintiff that the pony was "sound, healthy, possesed no physical defects, and was suited for investment and competitive jumping."

    I think the part you are reading about the farm "directing" the vet to perform the PPE and tell the plaintiff if there was anything wrong with the pony is actually just a section that could have been drafted better than it is.
    You and I recall the same document.

    What about the paragraph that describes what P Griffith did in terms of setting up the PPE sounds bad to you? I just noticed that even the plaintiff agrees that the trainer had asked the vet to communicate with her, the plaintiff. So... you can't claim that the trainer tried to block that communication, the buyer getting the PPE results straight from the vet.
    The armchair saddler
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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Yes, but IMO the new po should have been told that pony had rotation at that time but they deem it good for the job at hand
    because he was sound and they could manage it. From what it looks like in the complaint they were never told anything about rotation in the pony.
    I'll bet that this *is* what happened....and then the management plan didn't work.

    The PO'd PO wanted some of her money back (or maybe almost 2X). So PO revises history (or is balls-on-accurate) in this complaint in order to find the inciting cause of the whole problem.

    The complaint, of course, is only one version of the story and it is slanted-- both toward the plaintiff and existing law. It seems to me that that is the nature of the complaint genre.

    It would be much messier to argue that you were defrauded by the vet and/or trainer because they looked at X-rays and the pony trot... saw some coffin bone rotation that was somewhere in between "perfect" and "toast" and were simply mistaken about how the position of the coffin bone on an Xray related to clinical lameness they could, in fact, manage.

    Or it might be harder to argue the other possibility: Client knew what was wrong with the pony and something about what counted as "management." But that stopped working and/or it was taken to a new, untenable level and the PO was PO'd. That-- having to block the horse for shows-- sucked because if the team that was on the PO's side at the time of purchase can't keep it sound, then what other buyer or lessee will be able to do that?
    Last edited by mvp; May. 3, 2013 at 01:10 AM.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    You DONT think it should be laid out objectively for the client?! Seriously? God forbid clients make their own decisions. I mean, they're only the ones paying for the horse!

    Its not the trainer's job to interpret for the client. Its the VETS job to present the information in a manner that the client will understand. Its called client communication.

    If the client would then like an additional opinion on the future soundness of the horse for its given job, they can then consult the trainer. But, IMO, the trainer should in no way "filter" the information. That is totally not their place. I don't care how much experience they have, the trainer is only giving an opinion.

    If the client is really uncomfortable making the decision and wants to go with whatever their more-knowledgable trainer believes is best, fine. But that should occur after they have actually heard it straight from the vet's mouth and heard the information presented in the most objective form possible.
    I actually agree with you .

    I was just pointing out from an earlier comment why I think it is NOT a good idea for trainers to get in between buyers and vets. This was based on an earlier poster who shaid he/she always has the vet relay the information to him/her first so she can explain things to the client.

    Without meaning to, a trainer can inadvertenly minimize things that the trainer might not have a problem with, not realizing that the buyer does not have the same comfort level.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.


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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponytrnr117 View Post
    Originally Posted by RockinHorse
    Bolding mine...

    First of all, unless you are the one buying the animal, I don't think it matters what you are willing to look past. It matters what the BUYER is willing to look past.

    Second, personally, I think that conversations and education to determine what a buyer's comfort level with PPE findings and maintenance etc, should happen well before a PPE is performed. If a buyer is looking for an older schoolmaster, it makes sense to me to have those discussions well before hand to make sure the buyers objectives and budget are realistic. If this occurs, then hearing the findings from the vet should not be too much for the client.


    Since I couldn't figure out any other way to copy and paste that...

    Of course I meant I am comfortable on behalf of my client. My client pays me for my expertise and experience with such matters. I am the one who helps them come up with a program for maintenance on their animal. If the client was 100% able to make these decisions on their own, then that that is 100% fine with me and I don't need to charge them and they can train themselves! Most of the time my clients fall someplace in between knowing nothing and being able to train themselves. They generally appreciate my knowledge of caring for horses and finding them something suitable for their needs- thus why they train with me :-)
    From your original post, it sounded like you had the vet give you the findings and then you relay those finding to the client. If that is not the case, no problem. If it is the case then it is not a practice I would be comfortable with for two reasons:

    1) like the game of telephone, things change in every telling
    2) without meaning to, the way information is passed along can be influenced by the feelings and beliefs of the teller

    In every PPE I have done, I have reviewed the results with the trainer. However, we are both working from original information from the vet (much easier now that so many things are available instantly .

    I value my trainer's experience and opinion but not as much as I value the vet's when it comes to health and soundness.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.


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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    None of us know for certain, and none of us have any reason to assume it was anything nefarious.
    Best thing I might have read so far...


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  17. #217
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    I'm just....puzzled by this.

    While it is plausible that it happened as has been described, is it not also plausible that purchaser bought pony, knowing that it had a little bit of rotation (communicated verbally, no paper trail) but went ahead with the purchase. Kid shows. Kid doesn't do as well as expected on pony and pony rotates still further. Pony then doesn't increase in value as purchaser expected and sees suing as a way of attempting to recoup dollars?

    Where is the insurance agency in all of this? Surely this pony made of solid gold was insured (and if not...really??). Do they have vet reports and rads?

    I'm also puzzled by the allegations of blocking. Was the pony lame enough that it required to be blocked for every ride? Was it a case of it getting sore at the shows because of poor footing? Seems a bit extreme to block the whole foot in this case. And wouldn't that test?

    I'm not on either side of this - I know unethical things do occur - but something just feels off.


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  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I'm also puzzled by the allegations of blocking. Was the pony lame enough that it required to be blocked for every ride? Was it a case of it getting sore at the shows because of poor footing? Seems a bit extreme to block the whole foot in this case. And wouldn't that test?
    Completely aside from whether this specific allegation is true in this case, blocking feet is not a new practice (in more than a few disciplines, in fact I can think of another USEF discipline that might be the poster child in this area couchcoughWildEyedAndWickedcoughcough), and it is a given they don't block with easily detectable substances (or detectable at all). Also, even if it was a detectable substance, the horse has to be tested and the sample has to target the specific substance in order to get a positive result.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Completely aside from whether this specific allegation is true in this case, blocking feet is not a new practice (in more than a few disciplines, in fact I can think of another USEF discipline that might be the poster child in this area couchcoughWildEyedAndWickedcoughcough), and it is a given they don't block with easily detectable substances (or detectable at all). Also, even if it was a detectable substance, the horse has to be tested and the sample has to target the specific substance in order to get a positive result.
    Hitting the nail on the head, as usual, DMK

    FWIW, it ain't just feet that get blocked


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  20. #220
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    Yes, I suppose I just hadn't even thought about it in the hunters. I know about tail blocking in the quarter horses. With all this talking about testing and testable substances that seems to be a rather large and obvious one that they would test for were it common. Again - with all the focus on quieting substances, I just hadn't heard any whisperings about it.



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