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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    I'm not sure what lines you are reading between...where would you get the idea that the pony was in Heritage's program when it was sold? There is nothing in the complaint that would indicate such a thing. The pony might have been physically located at Heritage for the prepurchase (perhaps on a trial period), or it might have just been vetted by Heritage's vet at the seller's farm. I don't think you can really tell from the complaint.

    Someone earlier posted something that led me to believe the rider had been riding the pony with Heritage for a while even before the sale?! Which led me to believe the pony was in Heritage's care. I could have been misunderstanding.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Then you'd have to know when the pony came to Heritage Farm. Again, from the buyer/plaintiff's POV, it's irrelevant because the pony feetz Xrays showed rotation on the PPE day.

    Agree. Irrelevant from the buyer's POV. But people are asking "what would make a trainer do this?" Covering up mismanagement of someone else's pony that the trainer had "on trial" is a potential explanation.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Yeah. That's why one of the interesting parts of this complaint is the paragraph about what Heritage Farm told the PPE vet to do: As I read it, the farm set up the PPE and had the vet communicate with the plaintiff. No where does it say that the vet was not to speak to the plaintiff, or to the trainers first.

    FWIW, this vet has a good reputation and has been around awhile. I'm sure he knew that he was working for the buyers, not the trainers, when performing a PPE.

    Just who decided not to give the full scoop to the buyers on PPE day seems a central issue. But I don't think the buyer should have been obligated to do any special wringing of information from the vet.
    The complaint actually alleges that each of the defendants (farm, trainer, and vet) represented to the plaintiff that the pony was "sound, healthy, possesed no physical defects, and was suited for investment and competitive jumping."

    I think the part you are reading about the farm "directing" the vet to perform the PPE and tell the plaintiff if there was anything wrong with the pony is actually just a section that could have been drafted better than it is.



  4. #184
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    Lots of assumptions on this thread, mostly slanted at the op's barn at the time of purchase. Lets try another assumption....ie: that pony was nerved before ppe. If ppe showed mild rotation and pony was sound, both Heritage and their vet might conclude that it was a condition they could monitor and manage if need be. Instead, nerves re grow, pony is suddenly crippled and everyone is left speechless except original seller. This is, of course, total speculation, just as are many of the previous posts. The point is, there are a lot of possible scenarios here, 10 whole pages of them so far. I sincerely hope those x-rays are clear as crystal and give us some truth.



  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Someone earlier posted something that led me to believe the rider had been riding the pony with Heritage for a while even before the sale?! Which led me to believe the pony was in Heritage's care. I could have been misunderstanding.
    I don't think so. The pony was with Emil through all of Ocala last year, then was under Bibby for the last week of WEF. The Dildabanians are the recorded owner for all subsequent shows, so I don't think Heritage had any association with the pony prior to their purchase.



  6. #186
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    The level of conjecture presented in this thread is horrifying. Not surprising, but horrifying because it is all based on a document that is utterly one-sided.

    Someone even posted something about waiting for the defendants to "prove their innocence". And here I've lived my whole life believing our justice system is based on the assumption of innocent until proven guilty. You really do learn something new (although not necessarily true) here on COTH every day!


    10 members found this post helpful.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    I don't think so. The pony was with Emil through all of Ocala last year, then was under Bibby for the last week of WEF. The Dildabanians are the recorded owner for all subsequent shows, so I don't think Heritage had any association with the pony prior to their purchase.
    Interesting that Emil owns the pony until the week the kid buys her and then he's owned by Bibby. And purchased through Larry.
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    Interesting that Emil owns the pony until the week the kid buys her and then he's owned by Bibby. And purchased through Larry.
    There were obviously multiple fingers in the pie here regarding the sale of the pony, but I'm VERY skeptical that any of the above misrepresented the pony in any way.


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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    There were obviously multiple fingers in the pie here regarding the sale of the pony, but I'm VERY skeptical that any of the above misrepresented the pony in any way.
    Right......


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #190
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    I don't see any reason why Andre would "trick" them into buying an unsound pony. This family has the budget to buy any pony they want. I highly doubt they were looking for a deal. I anything I'm sure he could have convinced them to buy an even pricier pony.



  11. #191
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    Lawsuits, as frivolous as they may be, can still run up the $$. You get a few non-horsey attorneys going at it and it can drag on forever. Buyers should have a signed statement from Seller that all medical records have been produced since last PPE with former owner. Then if you find something later on, you may have a case for fraud. Problem with alleging fraud is that Farm Insurance won't cover it. So they won't provide a lawyer.



  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purepony View Post
    Lots of assumptions on this thread, mostly slanted at the op's barn at the time of purchase. Lets try another assumption....ie: that pony was nerved before ppe. If ppe showed mild rotation and pony was sound, both Heritage and their vet might conclude that it was a condition they could monitor and manage if need be. Instead, nerves re grow, pony is suddenly crippled and everyone is left speechless except original seller. This is, of course,
    total speculation, just as are many of the previous posts. The point is, there are a lot of possible scenarios here, 10 whole pages of them so far. I sincerely hope those x-rays are clear as crystal and give us some truth.
    Yes, but IMO the new po should have been told that pony had rotation at that time but they deem it good for the job at hand
    because he was sound and they could manage it. From what it looks like in the complaint they were never told anything about rotation in the pony. Jmo I would never buy any horse or pony with rotation, I don't care how much it cost or if it was free. Its just asking for a lot of money in farriers and vets and possible pts that i don't want to have to do. Now if one of mine had this issue after the fact I'll do anything for them they need but 175k for a pony with rotation is crazy to me but hey that's just me.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothy Gale View Post
    Right......
    Eh, unlike a lot of the armchair quarterbacks on this board, I actually have firsthand, personal dealings with one of the pony's previous owners (given that I, uh, pay board to his barn every month and entrust them with my horse's well-being and training). He wouldn't sell anything without disclosing known issues....


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jsalem View Post
    Honestly, I have no knowledge of animals being blocked to show. What do you mean, a block like when you are doing diagnostics? I have never heard of vets doing this to get an animal to the ring. I've been in a tight spot before at a big competition with a horse that had scratches or a pony that had something going on that we hadn't been able to get to the bottom of. That has never been presented as an option (not that I would do it, but we were pretty frantic and I feel like it would have come up if it was something that was common).

    I think that people assume too much. Like someone else said, these guys have a huge business with a lot to lose. Why would they do something like that with this one pony? And I can tell you from experience, animals can leave a program where they are sound and happy and quickly fall apart with different management. It happens all the time.
    It happens.

    Some years back, a friend of mine doing FL was handed a bill for services for the month that included a line item for "blocking feet".

    She immediately asked, "what's this for? Was my horse lame? You didn't tell me my horse was lame!"

    The trainer looked at her like she was crazy and told her it was "for the hack." That it was SOP.

    Owner persisted in the questioning, and trainer snatched the bill back, later handing her one without the charge for the blocks.


    ETA: I have no dog in the current fight, and no reason to believe that the pony in question was being routinely blocked. Just wanted to point out that it isn't an uncommon slimy practice in the H/J show world.
    Last edited by Ghazzu; May. 2, 2013 at 08:02 PM. Reason: clarification
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    I don't think so. The pony was with Emil through all of Ocala last year, then was under Bibby for the last week of WEF. The Dildabanians are the recorded owner for all subsequent shows, so I don't think Heritage had any association with the pony prior to their purchase.
    I might have misunderstood. It sounded to me like Heritage/the buyer had the pony on trial before buying but if that's not correct that discounts one explanation for "why lie."
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purepony View Post
    Lots of assumptions on this thread, mostly slanted at the op's barn at the time of purchase. Lets try another assumption....ie: that pony was nerved before ppe. If ppe showed mild rotation and pony was sound, both Heritage and their vet might conclude that it was a condition they could monitor and manage if need be. Instead, nerves re grow, pony is suddenly crippled and everyone is left speechless except original seller. This is, of course, total speculation, just as are many of the previous posts. The point is, there are a lot of possible scenarios here, 10 whole pages of them so far. I sincerely hope those x-rays are clear as crystal and give us some truth.
    Also very possible.

    At this point, we're all guessing. And I think everyone's made it clear that they're doing nothing more than speculating/guessing/commenting generally as opposed to CONCLUDING that any of the theories are indeed true.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHorse View Post
    I get what you are saying but these are situations where it is very easy for a trainer to interpret and relay the vets finding according to their own thoughts of what is best for the client rather than laying things out objectively in lay terms for the client to make their own descisions.
    You DONT think it should be laid out objectively for the client?! Seriously? God forbid clients make their own decisions. I mean, they're only the ones paying for the horse!

    Its not the trainer's job to interpret for the client. Its the VETS job to present the information in a manner that the client will understand. Its called client communication.

    If the client would then like an additional opinion on the future soundness of the horse for its given job, they can then consult the trainer. But, IMO, the trainer should in no way "filter" the information. That is totally not their place. I don't care how much experience they have, the trainer is only giving an opinion.

    If the client is really uncomfortable making the decision and wants to go with whatever their more-knowledgable trainer believes is best, fine. But that should occur after they have actually heard it straight from the vet's mouth and heard the information presented in the most objective form possible.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  18. #198
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    So, obviously, this is not exactly Montana ranch horse domain! And I am still trying to wrap my head around $175k for a pony, but...just out of curiousity, what happens, most likely, to the pony? He sure is cute.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #199
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    Oh and as far as the pony being nerved before the PPE... that is definitely something a vet should be checking for when performing their exam. And I would be very surprised if it was skipped by these vets, who I'm sure do many PPE's each year on some very expensive animals.



  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    It happens.


    Owner persisted in the questioning, and trainer snatched the bill back, later handing her one without the charge for the blocks.
    As I'm reading all this I couldn't help but think that an unscrupulous trainer with a deep pocket client who generates commissions and keeps the horse in a show program could easily "eat" an injection or two every now and then.

    I did some time in a hunter show barn; I was much younger, working full time and it was my outlet. I didn't have the time or inclination to quibble over vague line items on my bill unless they were large...Farrier came on the day barn was closed (weekday) as did the vet for standard stuff. One unsound mare was enough to get me out of the set up and on my own.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



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