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  1. #1
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    Default Quik explanation of Power Pak.... why use it over daily dewormer, plus...

    ... Apologies... know there are many threads on the Power Pak, but need to make argument as to why to use PP over a daily dewormer. If these 2 products are even comparing apples with apples??
    --what would prompt a horseowner to use a PP -- intuition? no weight gain (or a loss)? A fecal result? ??
    --what does a PP accomplish that a double-dose of some category of dewormer would not?
    --how costly? ordered where? length of treatment?
    --after use, the horse resumes the deworm schedule used in the barn? OK to be dry-lotted with a small herd that hasn't been PP'd?

    Huge thanks. These people have never even heard of a PowerPak, probably, so need facts...



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberbay View Post
    ... Apologies... know there are many threads on the Power Pak, but need to make argument as to why to use PP over a daily dewormer. If these 2 products are even comparing apples with apples??
    --what would prompt a horseowner to use a PP -- intuition? no weight gain (or a loss)? A fecal result? ??
    --what does a PP accomplish that a double-dose of some category of dewormer would not?
    --how costly? ordered where? length of treatment?
    --after use, the horse resumes the deworm schedule used in the barn? OK to be dry-lotted with a small herd that hasn't been PP'd?

    Huge thanks. These people have never even heard of a PowerPak, probably, so need facts...
    JB can answer most of your questions, but I do know the answer to this one:
    how costly? ordered where? length of treatment?
    You can order them just about anywhere, average cost is around $60 give or take, and the dose is given for 5 consecutive days (double dose of panacur, five days in a row, so just like giving 2 single dose tubes daily for 5 days only its cheaper to buy as the "powerpac" than to buy 10 single does tubes).
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  3. #3
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    1. A daily dewormer is a very low dose of dewormer given continuously (usually pyrantel pamoate). It isn't strong enough to kill off an existing load. Essentially, all it does is keep any new infection from starting. So, you'd have to give the horse a dewormer before starting the daily for it to work properly.

    2. Daily dewormers cover small and large strongyles, ascarids and pinworms. No coverage for bots, tapeworms, encysted strongyles, and an assortment of less common things. So, even a horse on daily dewormer will need to be wormed 2x per year with a product that handles bots, tapes and encysteds.

    3. A Power Pak is a product that contains a double dose of fenbendazole, meant to be given for 5 consecutive days. It is effective against the usual suspects, plus many stages of encysted strongyles.


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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberbay View Post
    If these 2 products are even comparing apples with apples??
    Apples to oranges

    --what would prompt a horseowner to use a PP -- intuition? no weight gain (or a loss)? A fecal result? ??
    FECs don't see encysted strongyles - they are encysted, not adults, not laying eggs. some people DO think "he looks poor, let's just do a PP", and that's just one thing that has led to the resistance of fenbendazole. But, a horse who has a regular high FEC (fecal egg count) might suspect the horse has a high encysted population which keeps emerging, so might do it then. But, given the resistance issue, Quest is a better choice. However, if the horse is too thin, moxidectin isn't safe, so a PP would be a better choice then

    --what does a PP accomplish that a double-dose of some category of dewormer would not?
    The only other chemical that kills encysted strongyles is moxidectin (Quest). So, those 2 are the only things that kill encysted strongyles. Nothing else does that. You can't even give enough ivermectin to do it.

    --how costly? ordered where? length of treatment?
    Ordered many places, most online catalogs usually have it, Tractor Supply, Southern States, many feed mills probably. It's a double dose of fenbendazole for 5 days in a row - double does each day.

    --after use, the horse resumes the deworm schedule used in the barn?
    this really isn't an "interruption" in the schedule, it's just part of it. However, the ideal is that horses get Quest Plus in the Spring, Equimax in the Fall, maybe a single ivermectin here or there if FECs warrant it, and you eliminate the need for a PP

    OK to be dry-lotted with a small herd that hasn't been PP'd?
    Yes. Dry lots should have manure picked up on a regular basis, and if it's not, then putting a PP'd horse in with non-PP'd horses is not the bigger concern


    Quote Originally Posted by joiedevie99 View Post
    1. A daily dewormer is a very low dose of dewormer given continuously (usually pyrantel pamoate).
    It's pyrantel tartrate, a cousin. It can be given in a large enough dose to function the same as a regular dose of the pamoate, though I forget the dose - it's fairly large, like I have an impression of something like a pound of it LOL

    It isn't strong enough to kill off an existing load. Essentially, all it does is keep any new infection from starting. So, you'd have to give the horse a dewormer before starting the daily for it to work properly.
    Yes, you should use Ivermectin (or Equimax) or Quest/Quest Plus the day before starting a DW

    3. A Power Pak is a product that contains a double dose of fenbendazole, meant to be given for 5 consecutive days. It is effective against the usual suspects, plus many stages of encysted strongyles.
    All stages of encysted strongyles. And it's got a growing resistance issue to "the usual suspects"
    ______________________________
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  5. #5
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    Oh - cost:

    $60-ish for a Panacur Power Pack (a Safeguard Power Dose is a little cheaper). That's for a one-time killing of the encysted strongyles, done 1, no more than 2x/year.

    DW - $50-ish for a 100 day supply for a 1000lb horse. That's over $150 for that horse for a year, and more if he's a bigger horse.

    But, they aren't comparable products, so there's not a lot of point in comparing cost. Just doing a PP for the sake of $$ isn't a reason in and of itself to do a PP over a DW
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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  6. #6
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    Thanks, everyone!!

    JB, if you would be willing to stand at the blackboard for just a few more moments on this topic...?? Huge thanks, again.

    Horse in question is a 13-yr-old QH... dry-lotted with 5 other horses... lot picked daily thoroughly, although this thoroughness is new since this winter, IMO, and done OK enough prior.

    He is ribby. That's the concern. So, the BO wants to DW him. I was thinking, instead, a PP, if we're talkin' dewormer approach, would be better. And you seemed to have corroborated at least that DW doesn't do infestations, just maintenance. Cost would be another argument, too, since PP is cheaper, and since these horses line up along the fenceline to have their 2x/day grain, a DW might go down an unintended gullet.

    Severely doubt that BO would do a fecal to see what's up... and, in any case, if horse is infected, the PP would be a solution, right?

    last question: If horse is PP'd, when would he start shedding the worms and for how long, and should he be kept out of the drylot during that time to spare his companions?



  7. #7
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    I have a horse with a questionable worming history, and my vet advised the following to treat a possible infestation:

    Panacur PowerPack (5 days)
    Then two weeks after completion of that, a dose of ivermectin plus praziquantel.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lferguson View Post
    I have a horse with a questionable worming history, and my vet advised the following to treat a possible infestation:

    Panacur PowerPack (5 days)
    Then two weeks after completion of that, a dose of ivermectin plus praziquantel.
    This is exactly what I do with every new horse I purchase, as they never seem to come with a history. Works very well for me and I feel like ti give me a very good base from which to work moving forward.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberbay View Post
    Thanks, everyone!!

    JB, if you would be willing to stand at the blackboard for just a few more moments on this topic...?? Huge thanks, again.

    Horse in question is a 13-yr-old QH... dry-lotted with 5 other horses... lot picked daily thoroughly, although this thoroughness is new since this winter, IMO, and done OK enough prior.

    He is ribby. That's the concern. So, the BO wants to DW him. I was thinking, instead, a PP, if we're talkin' dewormer approach, would be better. And you seemed to have corroborated at least that DW doesn't do infestations, just maintenance. Cost would be another argument, too, since PP is cheaper, and since these horses line up along the fenceline to have their 2x/day grain, a DW might go down an unintended gullet.

    Severely doubt that BO would do a fecal to see what's up... and, in any case, if horse is infected, the PP would be a solution, right?

    last question: If horse is PP'd, when would he start shedding the worms and for how long, and should he be kept out of the drylot during that time to spare his companions?
    A DW is definitely useless for this, though there are SOME (some, few and far between) horses for whom a DW routine ends up being the best thing for them, probably due to an immune system that is just too poor in handling parasites, but that is not something you consider right off the bat. If he's got an infestation, it won't do anything.

    A PP isn't broad-spectrum enough if he's "infested". It will leave all the tapeworms (and if he's got a real problem with strongyles, he's got a real problem with tapes and possibly bots as well), and leave all the bots. It WILL get any ascarids he might have (even as an adult).

    It will bring numbers down, yes, but it will also leave a lot.

    Since $$ is an issue, I too will assume a FEC is not going to happen.

    So, this is what I'd do - a dose of Safeguard, then in 2 weeks, do Quest Plus. That will all be cheaper than a Power Pack, and will get done what needs to be done.

    If he's really infested, the Safeguard (fenbendazole, you can also use Panacur, just that Safeguard is often a bit cheaper) will knock down a portion of the strongyles, making it about as safe as possible for the Quest Plus to knock out *everything* else.

    Cheaper than a PP, tons more effective
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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  10. #10
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    Are there any risks when using Panacur Power Pack?



  11. #11
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    It's a fact that the side effect of how the PP kills the encysted strongyles is that it mimics the effect of cyathostomosis when those critters emerge on their own. That is, it leaves little ulcerations in the spot where the parasite was.

    This occurs on/about Day 14, and for some horses, can induce colic symptoms.

    So, there's that, and the fact that you might be PP'ing a horse with resistant strongyles and not do much good
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  12. #12
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    I prefer to do a fecal before starting any worming. I just got a horse off the track - he's thin and I figured he probably had worms. After sending the fecal in, it was clean. I prefer not to worm if I don't have to for the exact reasons mentioned before - resistance. I have also had my horses on a dry 'pasture' (cleaned daily) for several years - every fecal has turned up negative.



  13. #13
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    Yes, but a fecal does not indicate whether the horse has encysted strongyles or not. There's no test for encysted strongyles.
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  14. #14
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    But, at some point, the encysted strongyles will emerge, and then you'll have something showing up on the FECs Encysteds tend to stay there unless and until there is a "clean" horse into which they can move. That's why, for example, you can have a horse come up with a large count, you deworm with Equimax, do another FEC in 12 weeks, and dangit he's "still" high.

    No, he's not "still" high, he's high again, and it may be because he had a large encysted colony that was just biding its time because the horse was already "full", and when the Equimax cleaned things out, the encysteds said "party time!"

    However, the point about never deworming simply because FECs are always clean IS ignoring the fact that there are still worms that are never, or only rarely, going to show up on FECs - tapeworms, bots, pinworms, stomach worms, and a few others.

    That's why the core recommendation is to deworm Spring and Fall, and then tailor whatever else needs to be done based on the individual and geographics. I'm sure there are situations where a 1-time deworming each year is all the horse needs - probably a lot of horses in dry lot situations where exposure to tapeworm-carrying mites is low, particularly if they're already in an area that has a low problem to begin with, and where there are few to no botflies, could probably easily do with just a yearly "cleanout" of, say, Quest Plus.

    But there are enough things that come to the horse, that have nothing to do with grazing "infested" pasture, to say that a horse never needs to be dewormed
    ______________________________
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    However, the ideal is that horses get Quest Plus in the Spring, Equimax in the Fall, maybe a single ivermectin here or there if FECs warrant it, and you eliminate the need for a PP
    JB, are you saying that for a healthy horse on a consistent worming schedule this is ALL they need? Worming twice a year?

    We had a discussion here not too long ago about not worming if it is above 85 degrees (which eliminates the entire summer for my climate) or below __ [something, I forgot what]; but where I live (Texas), winters can be mild. So I was thinking I would need to worm three times a year: fall, winter, and spring.

    And since my vet worms them in the spring, that would just leave fall and winter.

    But, you're saying just fall and spring. Right?

    This spring, after my vet wormed them, he recommended that I give them a Power Pak two weeks later, which I did. But going forward, is that overkill?

    Thanks so much. Always trying to perfect my horse's lives.
    I have a Fjord! Life With Oden



  16. #16
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    Why is the vet worming them in the spring, and what is he using?

    The key is using effective wormers, not ones with high resistance problems. Paying the vet to worm and then using PP two weeks later is unnecessary, IMO. Just use an effective wormer (like Quest Plus, or the PP) the first time.

    Does it freeze at all where you live? Personally, I would do an FEC 8-10 weeks out from your fall worming to determine whether you need an additional winter dose.
    Caitlin
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindyg View Post
    JB, are you saying that for a healthy horse on a consistent worming schedule this is ALL they need? Worming twice a year?
    It all depends on the horse's immune system's ability to deal with worms. The horse might otherwise be the picture of health, inside and out, but just doesn't have quite the oomph he needs to take care of things well enough on his own. That's why you still need to do FECs on a regular basis. Even a "healthy" horse who has in the past been clean for years, might suddenly turn up with a high count for some reason.

    [qouote]We had a discussion here not too long ago about not worming if it is above 85 degrees (which eliminates the entire summer for my climate) or below __ [something, I forgot what]; but where I live (Texas), winters can be mild. So I was thinking I would need to worm three times a year: fall, winter, and spring.
    [/quote]
    45-85 is a temp range in which eggs can start developing. The colder in that range, the slower they are to develop to any infective stage. Above 85* for extended periods of time starts killing eggs and larva, especially if the manure is spread out and the eggs get more exposure to the elements and can dry out as well.

    You don't know if you need a Winter deworming without FECs Get one now, see what's what. If things are clean, then I'd use Equimax in Oct/Nov or so. 12 weeks after that (so Jan/Feb) do another FEC and see what you have. You might well be clean, and then will do another FEC in March-ish and see what you have before you do the Spring deworming with (I'd use) Quest Plus

    And since my vet worms them in the spring, that would just leave fall and winter.
    What does she use?

    This spring, after my vet wormed them, he recommended that I give them a Power Pak two weeks later, which I did. But going forward, is that overkill?
    Errrr. what was the reasoning? If he'd just used Quest Plus, there would be no need for a PP.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    It's a fact that the side effect of how the PP kills the encysted strongyles is that it mimics the effect of cyathostomosis when those critters emerge on their own. That is, it leaves little ulcerations in the spot where the parasite was.

    This occurs on/about Day 14, and for some horses, can induce colic symptoms.

    So, there's that, and the fact that you might be PP'ing a horse with resistant strongyles and not do much good
    Doesn't Quest paralyze them instead so that the parasites don't cause the same problem?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  19. #19
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    If you're going to use a PowerPac it's much cheaper to use Safe-Guard got drench at double the dose the horse would normally get. Goes right on the food and they eat it fine.

    http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...2-00b0d0204ae5
    Quarry Rat



  20. #20
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    If you're going to use a PowerPac it's cheaper to use Safe-Guard goat drench at double the dose the horse would normally get. Goes right on the food and they eat it fine.

    http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...2-00b0d0204ae5
    Last edited by Mosey_2003; Sep. 18, 2013 at 09:51 AM. Reason: spelling
    Quarry Rat



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