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  1. #21
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    The Boy Who Cried Wolf, Chapter 347563674.
    EDDIE WOULD GO


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    They are not going to risk showing the world that T. is FAR from pushbutton, and most of what made him HIM was Gal.
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    most of what made him HIM was Gal.
    Yeah, they were a dream team. Break that team up, and the magic is gone...


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.
    Might steal this as my sig line! I agree after watching DD ride this morning, that is a lot of buttons to push and the results are not always what your ordered.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockpot View Post
    DO you mean Sven Rothenberger? WhAT does he have to do with it?
    I think Kyzteke must have meant Sjef J, not Sven R.

    I do lament that the world never got to see a top-form Totilas in head to head competition with the likes of Valegro, Uthopia, etc.... I would have liked to see in black and white what the results of that judging would have been, and the implications for the trajectory of modern dressage competition.

    That's NOT to imply that I think Totilas' scores were vastly inflated under Gal - only that he was somewhat one-sided in his abilities, and it would have been intriguing to pit those utterly phenomenal collected movements against the all-round correctness of some current top pairs.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    I think Kyzteke must have meant Sjef J, not Sven R.

    I do lament that the world never got to see a top-form Totilas in head to head competition with the likes of Valegro, Uthopia, etc.... I would have liked to see in black and white what the results of that judging would have been, and the implications for the trajectory of modern dressage competition.

    That's NOT to imply that I think Totilas' scores were vastly inflated under Gal - only that he was somewhat one-sided in his abilities, and it would have been intriguing to pit those utterly phenomenal collected movements against the all-round correctness of some current top pairs.
    I too would have loved to see Totilas compete with Velegro and some of todays top competition horses, but with Gal I think that Toto would still have won hand's down.


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  7. #27
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    You know, I can't blame Rath for being relieved over a scratch, if he is in fact feeling relieved. No matter how well or how poorly he rides, people are happy to roast him for EVERY little thing. No, he's not Gal. That doesn't make him a bad rider, just different. I was VERY impressed by the improvement he made in his riding while showing Totilas. He recognized things weren't going as well as they could be, and he made the effort to learn and grow. That takes a good deal of humility. I KNOW if I was just starting to compete at that level, I couldn't have handled the stress of the entire dressage world comparing me to someone who had been at the top for a long time. Yeah, I started off here as one of those who was sure Rath sucked and Gal was God. But as I've started learning dressage, I've developed a whole new level of understanding and respect for what Rath has done with Totilas.


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    I think Kyzteke must have meant Sjef J, not Sven R.
    Correct -- brief brain phart.

    As a breeder, what this tells me about T. is that he isn't a real easy ride. Gal obviously got more o/o him than Rath. Top level horses change riders quite abit and the results are not always predictable.

    I would like to see T. ridden by a more seasoned rider before I would make a judgement, but as a breeder I see a stallion who is highly sensitive and not particularly forgiving of a rider's mis-cues or mistakes.

    If he passes this trait on, then he would not be a good sire for ammies (which is 90% of the dressage world).

    And before everyone says there is a difference "at this level" -- no, not really. There are plenty of GP horses who can be ridden by ammies without totally losing their cool -- which T. seems to do. At least, according the the videos I've seen of the two in competition or exhibits -- T. starts to really fret when things get o/o sync.

    In other words, as a breeder, this is just something that's making me think. Of course if you spend this much $$ to breed to a horse like T., you hope you will get an Olympic caliber horse. But, genetics being what it is, chances are you will not -- simply because of all the logistics involves.

    So where does that put the offspring that may be (or may not be) uber-talented, but also VERY uber-sensitive?


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    I would like to see T. ridden by a more seasoned rider before I would make a judgement, but as a breeder I see a stallion who is highly sensitive and not particularly forgiving of a rider's mis-cues or mistakes....
    At least, according the the videos I've seen of the two in competition or exhibits -- T. starts to really fret when things get o/o sync.
    "Fret", to me, means worry. A horse would only worry if he's eager to please and senses he is failing, or is fearful of mistakes because of the consequences to come.

    From the various videos of Rath on T., it looks to be the former. T is looking to do his job right (Lord knows he knows how, so there is nothing to teach) but rider miscommunication is a frustrating thing to a "professional" dressage horse.

    As a breeder, I appreciate his work ethic. Not all horses can be ridden by all people.
    -Amor vincit omnia-


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    If he passes this trait on, then he would not be a good sire for ammies (which is 90% of the dressage world).

    And before everyone says there is a difference "at this level" -- no, not really. There are plenty of GP horses who can be ridden by ammies without totally losing their cool -- which T. seems to do. At least, according the the videos I've seen of the two in competition or exhibits -- T. starts to really fret when things get o/o sync.
    Two comments:

    #1 - I would be surprised if anyone breeding to Totilas has the ammie market in mind. The cost of his stud fee alone would put his foals out of the price range ammies are willing to pay. Not to mention his power, athletic ability, etc., which are way more than what most ammies need or are comfortable with.

    #2 - Many stallions "fret" when things get "out of sync", simply because they are stallions. IOW, nature has given them the drive (testosterone) to want to "dominate" and be in control, and they can sometimes get a little frustrated if things don't go 100% accordingly to routine - including how a rider uses an aid. And I thought PS's comment was quite telling - "We don't breed and show in the same day anymore" (or something to that effect). As I have said many times, Totilas is apparently one of those stallions that has a bit of trouble mentally separating his duties as a riding horse from his duties as a breeding stallion (on top of which, a heavy breeding schedule can make a stallion sore in the back, hocks, and stifles - not good for a top level dressage horse).


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Correct -- brief brain phart.

    As a breeder, what this tells me about T. is that he isn't a real easy ride. Gal obviously got more o/o him than Rath. Top level horses change riders quite abit and the results are not always predictable.

    I would like to see T. ridden by a more seasoned rider before I would make a judgement, but as a breeder I see a stallion who is highly sensitive and not particularly forgiving of a rider's mis-cues or mistakes.

    If he passes this trait on, then he would not be a good sire for ammies (which is 90% of the dressage world).

    And before everyone says there is a difference "at this level" -- no, not really. There are plenty of GP horses who can be ridden by ammies without totally losing their cool -- which T. seems to do. At least, according the the videos I've seen of the two in competition or exhibits -- T. starts to really fret when things get o/o sync.

    In other words, as a breeder, this is just something that's making me think. Of course if you spend this much $$ to breed to a horse like T., you hope you will get an Olympic caliber horse. But, genetics being what it is, chances are you will not -- simply because of all the logistics involves.

    So where does that put the offspring that may be (or may not be) uber-talented, but also VERY uber-sensitive?
    I've only watched Rath ride briefly, but from what I saw the horse was frustrated at now being able to go forward and USE himself. He was being prevented from doing it. This can make any good dressage horse upset.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Correct -- brief brain phart.

    As a breeder, what this tells me about T. is that he isn't a real easy ride. Gal obviously got more o/o him than Rath. Top level horses change riders quite abit and the results are not always predictable.

    I would like to see T. ridden by a more seasoned rider before I would make a judgement, but as a breeder I see a stallion who is highly sensitive and not particularly forgiving of a rider's mis-cues or mistakes.

    If he passes this trait on, then he would not be a good sire for ammies (which is 90% of the dressage world).

    And before everyone says there is a difference "at this level" -- no, not really. There are plenty of GP horses who can be ridden by ammies without totally losing their cool -- which T. seems to do. At least, according the the videos I've seen of the two in competition or exhibits -- T. starts to really fret when things get o/o sync.

    In other words, as a breeder, this is just something that's making me think. Of course if you spend this much $$ to breed to a horse like T., you hope you will get an Olympic caliber horse. But, genetics being what it is, chances are you will not -- simply because of all the logistics involves.

    So where does that put the offspring that may be (or may not be) uber-talented, but also VERY uber-sensitive?
    I've only watched Rath ride briefly, but from what I saw the horse was frustrated at now being able to go forward and USE himself. He was being prevented from doing it. This can make any good dressage horse upset.

    Blaming a horse's behavior on less-than-stellar riding is not fair.


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  13. #33
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    I can't imagine writing off a talented stallion with such an amazing work ethic just because one rider - yes one- rider was not able to get the same scores as the previous rider who happens to be one of the top trainers and riders in the world.

    Of course at that level of training he is highly tuned, very sensitive to the aids likely not an ammy horse.

    Why should he be any thing else?


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockpot View Post
    I can't imagine writing off a talented stallion with such an amazing work ethic just because one rider - yes one- rider was not able to get the same scores as the previous rider who happens to be one of the top trainers and riders in the world.

    Of course at that level of training he is highly tuned, very sensitive to the aids likely not an ammy horse.

    Why should he be any thing else?
    If your ego was the size of PS's, it could be an entirely different matter.
    EDDIE WOULD GO


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    "Fret", to me, means worry. A horse would only worry if he's eager to please and senses he is failing, or is fearful of mistakes because of the consequences to come.

    From the various videos of Rath on T., it looks to be the former. T is looking to do his job right (Lord knows he knows how, so there is nothing to teach) but rider miscommunication is a frustrating thing to a "professional" dressage horse.

    As a breeder, I appreciate his work ethic. Not all horses can be ridden by all people.
    As a novice who knows little, I agree with this. I absolutely love a very sensitive horse who tries - and am fully aware that each mis-step, mistake and blowup is caused by my riding. Sure, it means I have to work extra hard to improve and have some ugliness due to my drunk monkey riding - but it helps me improve much faster than I thought I would. It's surprising to me to watch Rath ride with a focus on what he's doing right and wrong and recognize many of my flaws in him - one would think he would have learned better by the time he reached that level, but if the horses he rode previously were easier horses, he may have simply never needed to.

    ETA: I re-read and the implication that I am as good at rider as Rath is most definitely NOT intended. He's a far better rider than I am, he just has some of the same flaws I do which can cause a hot and hardworking horse to overreact a bit when it feels stifled.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed


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  16. #36
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    Some horses have loads of ability to "fill in" for a rider; they are a fairly easy ride. Many of them are competing or at least training successfully at the GP level without alot of drama.

    A horse that is uber sensitive is not happy unless the rider is talented enough to communicate in a way that not only makes the horse understand what is expected of him, but also keep him calm & focused.

    Obviously Gal could do this in a way that suited T., where Rath is really struggling. The kid is young, but he is STILL a better rider than almost anyone posting on this board...he's no slug, but he is STILL struggling with this highly trained horse...a horse trained by one of the best riders & trainers in the world. What does that tell you?

    It tells me that T. is likely to throw a dispositions much like Jazz, where the foals are really more of a pro ride (again, of course every foal has two parents, blah, blah, blah -- I'm saying in general ). Well, that's great if the foals have the physical talent AND the ability to stay sound while reaching that level...but what if they don't?

    Just because you plan to breed for a GP horse, doesn't mean that will happen. Heavens, any breeder with more than a bit of experience knows if you get even 30% of your foals to show at GP level you are a howling success. It's simply not as easy as saying "GP Sire + GP Mare = GP Foal".

    So disposition DOES matter, because that broadens the market for a horse AND it increases the chance the horse will climb the levels because it won't take an Edward Gal to get him/her there. I would NEVER breed for this type of super-sensitive nature, because if you don't have the physical ability to go with it, you could end up with a train-wreck.

    After all there is a reason that the stallion testing scores for disposition, character, etc.

    Just notice most of these T. foals are offered for sale; I'm sure it's not strictly UL riders who are purchasing them.

    Like other posters, I'd like to wait till he has some sons in the various testings before I would get all silly over him.

    And I don't believe this has has much to do with gender as it does personality -- there are plenty of mares with this sort of disposition as well.

    As for the people who say they really WANT a super-sensitive horse...I'm willing to bet you probably would NOT enjoy riding T. A rider should enjoy riding their horse. Gal obviously adored riding T.; Rath does not appear to be having such a great time.

    I may be wrong on this, but I seem to remember someone on this board posting a quote from Gal where he said that he was scared to death of "the power" of T. when he first started riding him. Did I imagine that? Anyway, it is the rare rider who enjoys riding a horse that scares them, no matter how brilliant. Gal obviously worked through his fear, but if he scared somebody with Gal's ability, imagine what would happen to the vast majority of other riders on this planet! Most of us would "piaffe" ourselves the first time T. threw a hissy fit.

    But it's still early -- give T. afew more years and we can see what he produces.

    I'd sure like to see him do more in competition, though.

    You know, I wonder if Rath did a "test ride" on T. before purchase. Maybe horse buyers at such lofty heights don't do such mundane things...


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  17. #37
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    You make a lot of wild generalizations based on a pool of exactly two riders and even then MR's scores hit the 80s' I think.

    Let's wait and see...


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  18. #38
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    Great post, Kyzteke.
    A helmet saved my life.

    2015 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coreene View Post
    If your ego was the size of PS's, it could be an entirely different matter.
    Why such venom and hatred against PS? He is a self-made multi-millionaire. He likes horses, he saw a horse he wanted, he bought it.

    And I don't think his "ego" can hold a candle to Sjef's, but that is another story...

    But really, you probably should direct your anger toward the Visser's. After all, they are the ones who sold Totilas.



  20. #40
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    And I will also make this comment, as to Totilas's temperament and rideability.

    This quote is from Totilas's former owner:

    The two times he didn’t win (under Gal) was when he was fighting himself.
    So, as mentioned earlier - the horse does sometimes get a bit stallion-y. Gal had learned to manage it. Rath has a tougher job - Totilas is now older, stronger, and is doing a lot more breeding than he did previously. He is more confirmed in his own mind that he is a breeding stallion. Ask any stallion which job he likes best...


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