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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkevent View Post
    I wanted to add one of the links that JB shared in a thread (Genesee Valley Vet (?)) suggested not doing a fecal within 2 weeks of a deworming because it would skew the results.
    It depends on why you're doing the FEC. If you're doing another one to test the efficacy of the chemical, then you NEED to do it 10-14 days after the deworming for a relatively accurate reduction test.


    This happened to me. One of the horses here was dewormed and a fecal done 12 or 13 days after the deworming. According to this boarder's vet, the horse was "loaded with worms". The information came second hand from the boarder who isn't well versed in horses so I'm not sure how much he got right. He said the fecal showed the presence of "large and small something" (I'm guessing he meant strongyles). The vet he uses is not the most organized, and I'm wondering if the fecals perhaps got mixed up with someone elses.
    It is entirely possible to have a horse (still) loaded with strongyles if 1) the count was previously high, and 2) the chemical used was ineffective or the dose was inadeuate. So, if he started at, say, 1000, and they used a single dose of fenbendazole, it is very, very likely he could have still been at 800, 900, even still 1000 (or greater) 12 days later.

    I was stumped, so I had my vet do a fecal on all of the horses here a week later. All the fecals were negative.
    Did you have a FEC prior to deworming? "a week later" as in, a week after deworming?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov. 20, 2008
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    NJ
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    Sorry, I think what I wrote didn't entirely make sense.

    Back story is that I was switching from every two month dewormings to a strategic deworming schedule. The horses here are retired (except mine), have private pastures, the paddocks and stalls are picked multiple times per day. I don't pick up the pastures however. They are in the stalls/paddocks anywhere from 6-16 hours daily.

    The frustrating thing for OCD types like me is that there isn't a standard chart for strategic deworming to follow, so it is a bit intimidating. I don't have a chart to follow religiously! Eek!!

    The horse in question was dewormed with ivermectin. The second FEC performed by my vet was a week or two after the previous fecal, or maybe a month after the horse was dewormed.
    He did get the full dose of the dewormer.

    He could be a little immunocompromised because he is a hard keeper grey Tb in his 20s and he was losing weight. The owner's vet wants him on a two month deworming regardless and I want the horses here to be on a strategic deworming schedule. That's why I did a second FEC because it just seemed really hard to believe a horse could have such a high parasite burden after just being dewormed, especially given his lifestyle and risk factors. He has been on this farm for the past 5 years in the same pasture.

    I was also under the impression (from an AAEP article my vet had sent me) that one of the strongyles (can't remember if it was large or small) has almost been eliminated from the domestic equine population due to previous 4-8 week routine deworming, so I really couldn't understand how this horse could also have so many of those types of parasites present.

    I am very new to strategic deworming and was trying to do the correct approach due to the overwhelming positive data. If I'm missing something in my logic, please let me know!!



  3. #23
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkevent View Post
    Sorry, I think what I wrote didn't entirely make sense.

    Back story is that I was switching from every two month dewormings to a strategic deworming schedule. The horses here are retired (except mine), have private pastures, the paddocks and stalls are picked multiple times per day. I don't pick up the pastures however. They are in the stalls/paddocks anywhere from 6-16 hours daily.

    The frustrating thing for OCD types like me is that there isn't a standard chart for strategic deworming to follow, so it is a bit intimidating. I don't have a chart to follow religiously! Eek!!

    The horse in question was dewormed with ivermectin. The second FEC performed by my vet was a week or two after the previous fecal, or maybe a month after the horse was dewormed.
    A week to a month after a proper dose of ivermectin SHOULD be giving a clean FEC. If the FEC was done about 4 weeks after, then there are *some* instances now of the ERP for ivermectin being shortened to 4 weeks instead of 8 However, it may also be and issue of the horse having a very high juvenile load, which isn't killed by ivermectin, and enough of them matured to adult egg-shedding strongyles that they then showed up.

    A month after ivermectin is a poor time to do a FEC. You need to do a FECRT 10-14 days after deworming to make sure the chemical worked (any chemical), or you need to way 4 weeks after the ERP (egg reappearance period) to see if the horse needs to be dewormed again. So, that's 8 + 4 = 12 for ivermectin. It's 12+4=16 for moxidectin, and 4+4=8 for fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate

    He could be a little immunocompromised because he is a hard keeper grey Tb in his 20s and he was losing weight. The owner's vet wants him on a two month deworming regardless and I want the horses here to be on a strategic deworming schedule. That's why I did a second FEC because it just seemed really hard to believe a horse could have such a high parasite burden after just being dewormed, especially given his lifestyle and risk factors. He has been on this farm for the past 5 years in the same pasture.
    He may be compromised enough that his "strategic deworming" is every 3 months or so. It doesn't have to default to every 8 weeks. Ideally, he'll get another FEC at 12 weeks post-ivermectin and see what's up

    I was also under the impression (from an AAEP article my vet had sent me) that one of the strongyles (can't remember if it was large or small) has almost been eliminated from the domestic equine population due to previous 4-8 week routine deworming, so I really couldn't understand how this horse could also have so many of those types of parasites present.
    Not eliminated, but greatly reduced (large strongyles) and still, all bets are off with immuno-compromised horses

    I am very new to strategic deworming and was trying to do the correct approach due to the overwhelming positive data. If I'm missing something in my logic, please let me know!!
    I know it can be daunting and confusing at first, but it's actually really, really simple

    FEC at the end of Winter, then deworm with Quest Plus. FEC end of Summer, and after a good freeze use Equimax. That's the basic program for most horses. If you live where tapeworms aren't a big issue, then you can substitute Quest for Spring or plain ivermectin for Fall.

    If the Summer FEC is high enough, give a plain dose of ivermectin. That should get you though to the hard freeze when you'll use Equimax. That will give you 12 more weeks before it's reasonable to do another FEC which, for most of us, is the end of Winter anyway.

    Quest will protect for 12 weeks, so the 16 week mark is going to be around the end of the Summer anyway.

    2 dewormings for 80%+ of horses, maybe a 3rd thrown in there for most of the other 20%, and for a small %, there may need to be a 4th.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  4. #24
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2011
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    Just FYI, be very careful with Quest dosing, especially in ponies, miniature horses, etc as it's really easy to overestimate their weight and the safety margin of Quest is pretty low compared to other dewormers. Some of the vets at the clinic I work at don't use or recommend Quest at all.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    Quote Originally Posted by future vet View Post
    Just FYI, be very careful with Quest dosing, especially in ponies, miniature horses, etc as it's really easy to overestimate their weight and the safety margin of Quest is pretty low compared to other dewormers. Some of the vets at the clinic I work at don't use or recommend Quest at all.
    While this IS true, moxidectin is still pretty safe. It's not like you've got to nail the weight within 50 lbs or you're risking overdose.

    Several margin of safety studies here:

    http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/.../ucm117065.htm

    A single 2X dose is SAFE, and does not cause any adverse affects even for FOALS.

    Pregnant mares dosed at 3X several times during their pregnancy were fine, as were their foals.

    Breeding stallions dosed at 3X once a week for 3 weeks were also fine.

    So yeah--the margin of safety is a LOT smaller than something like ivermectin, and it's important to pay attention to your dosing especially in smaller equines, it's not like you're going to run into trouble if you say your 600 lb pony is 800 lbs and dose him for that, or if you use the whole tube on your 900 lb horse.

    And, of course, since it's stored in the fat cells, don't use it on super duper thin animals, but I think everyone knows that.

    I think not recommending moxidectin AT ALL because the margin of safety is "only" 3X is a little extreme.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by future vet View Post
    Just FYI, be very careful with Quest dosing, especially in ponies, miniature horses, etc as it's really easy to overestimate their weight and the safety margin of Quest is pretty low compared to other dewormers. Some of the vets at the clinic I work at don't use or recommend Quest at all.
    Yes, it does have a fairly significantly lower safety margin than ivermectin, but it's not SO sensitive that 100lb over for a horse is going to hurt. The lower the weight, the less of a % you have to play with for an extra "make sure you aren't under-dosing".

    I regularly add 200lb to my 2 heavier horses and 100lb to my 2 lighter horses (including my 2yo recently) and it's all good. I am NOT going to risk under-dosing just because of the relatively lower safety margin. But I'm also not worried about killing them with an extra 10% or so over what the higher number of the weight tape and the weight formula tell me.

    That's sad that you have vets who don't recommend Quest It and ivermectin are the only broad-spectrum dewormers we have, and to use only ivermectin is going to further shorten its life span
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov. 20, 2008
    Location
    NJ
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    JB-thank you so much for the information and your patience in explaining it!!

    It is very much appreciated!



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug. 13, 2014
    Location
    Southern CA
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    1

    Default First day of 5 days of fenbendazole deworming

    I have not done a power-pac deworming ever for my gelding and was nervous at the thought of it. I read many internet forums on the power pac vrs quest for deworming the encysted strongles and since those forums were helpful, wanted to post this for anyone else that might be interested. (this is my first horse forum post ever).

    Gen's 1300 lbs, 16 years old, is on the heavier side for 16 hands, is a TWH, and we've been together since he turned 3. He was last dewormed in Jan with ivermectrin (injectable by the vet). I ordered the safe-guard for cattle liquid since I wanted the required dose to get in him instead of being spit out. I found out about the liquid fenbendazole from a horse forum.

    This morning, measured out 60ml from 1 of the 3 small (goat size) bottles, squirted the syringe on his supplements and mixed in applesauce. He ate every drop.

    During the last 6 weeks, his manure is still mostly firm and round but when he passes gas, liquid would squirt out and dribble down his buttocks. He's been on a good pre and probiotics daily for several months. No change in hay either.

    Some posts I've read said the 5 day double dose of fenbendazole helped clear up gassy dribbling, it will be nice if it does. A couple of forum posts mentioned 'problems' at day 14, and some problems during the 5 day dosing period. So that is why I'm posting this, and I'll post again after the five days is done if there are any complications, how it went, and if the gassy dribbling clears up. Hopefully it's very boring and successful. Sorry this was long.



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Not long at all

    The 14 day "issues" are due to the parasites that are killed and decay in place. Everywhere that happens, that decay causes little ulcerations. The same thing happens when they emerge - cyathostomiasis. Have enough of them that are killed, and some horses react with colicky symptoms.

    That's why moxidectin is actually better/safer in that regard. It paralyzes the EL parasites (all but 1 stage), where they let go and pass though, no ulcerations result.

    That said, I used PPs for years and never had any issues. But, they were regularly dewormed, so likely never had any major encysted colony to begin with. Hopefully your guy doesn't either.

    The other issue with the PP, which is a growing one, is resistance. There's a long-term and widespread high resistance of the adults to fenbendazole. That has, as expected, led to some resistance of the encysted larva, which makes a PP potentially less effective on a given farm. The only way to know if this is potentially an issue on a given farm is FEC reduction tests. You need a high enough FEC to start with, use a single dose of fenbendazole, and do another FEC in 10-14 days to see what % reduction there was. If less than 85%, that's considered ineffective, and you shouldn't use fenbendazole at all. Theory says that if you exclude its use on a given farm for 10 years, you may well end up with a colony of strongyles who no longer have resistance.

    I say that not to mean you should stop the PP now - I wouldn't do that, as that will just likely add to any resistance issue you might have. I only say it for future reference
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



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