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  1. #1
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    Jan. 27, 2012
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    Default Two negatives of potential boarding stable: Stall Size and Required Worming Schedule

    Gotta find a new barn because my trainer wasn't working out and so I have to move to gain access to a new trainer. But that's another story!

    Found a barn with trainer I really like but two things bug me:

    1. Barn is very old and are stalls are 12 x 12 and fully enclosed except for screens and small windows facing aisle and they just seem kind of dark and gloomy but the barn IS old and horses there seem pretty content. We have been spoiled with 14 x 14 stalls with runs...so this will be a change for her.

    2. This barn has been in operation for nearly 20 years and the owner/trainer knows her stuff but the one thing that got my attention was that she requires every horse to be on her worming schedule. They are worm every horse every eight weeks. No exceptions. My vet has always told me it is better to have them tested and then decide if worming is necessary. Barn owner says she has never had any problems from this routine. I'm not extremely educated on this subject so curious if this is common practice with barns?


    Thoughts?
    Last edited by BlueSunMare; Apr. 23, 2013 at 02:12 AM. Reason: simplified post



  2. #2
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    Dec. 19, 2012
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    Default

    Depends on who you talk to. How large is your horse? 12x12 stalls, if they actually ARE 12x12 (a lot of people will say that but if you go and measure they may only be 10x11 - ask me how I know!) is a standard size. The no windows and limited view of friends is a concern, but my horse is a worry wart and being even semi-isolated would upset her greatly. With your horse being used to a large stall with a run that would be quite a shock. Also, only 5 hours of turn out a day seems crazy to me but perhaps that's normal where you are from? In that case, then 12x12 stalls definitely would be a deal breaker because horses need to move as much as possible especially when they are confined for 3/4 of the day.

    Almost everyone around me still worms every 8-12 weeks year round. Only in the past year have I heard of people pulling fecals and taking a less intense approach to worms. You may be able to ask the BM if it's possible for you to pull fecals every 8 weeks since you are not comfortable with the constant worming. Some people will go for this.

    What are the other barns in your area like? Surely there is at least one other option.



  3. #3
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    Jan. 27, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBPONY View Post
    \
    What are the other barns in your area like? Surely there is at least one other option.
    Yes..I have a fabulous option that would offer my horse a huge stall and private run and lots of turnout. But the drawback for me is no access to any of the trainers I am interested in working with! Seems I find the right trainer...but they either cannot come to my barn, I cannot afford their barn, or there is a problem with their barn. Ugh!

    The nice option barn I mentioned does have a good clinician who comes in once a month but that may not be enough for me. I'm learning dressage and need all the help I can get. But want what is best for my gal.

    Thanks...



  4. #4
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Default

    Horses can adapt. There are some who have issues but with a good trainer and planning, you can minimize the stress. When I relocated for work, I moved my horses from my large farm to a small farm, no living out, rotation etc. everyone adjusted. I think your girl would be fine...get a small hole hay net and ask about some boredom toys. With hay in their face, and a routine- I think she'd be fine. Other folks from the West Coast will chime in on this, I'm sure.
    Good luck.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  5. #5
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    Dec. 5, 2012
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    Default

    We actually have no worming requirements at my barn, but I and several of my barn friends are on an eight week rotation.



  6. #6
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    The stall size should not be an issue after a day or two.

    Deworming should be done as needed. But "need" can be a debatable concept. If you have a "closed herd" in a fixed location once you get parasites under reasonable control then a very "conservative" approach can work. But if you're in a public boarding barn with lots of in and out and mix and match turnout with horses that travel to and from lots of events in lots of places where they are exposed to other horses and other parasites then a much more aggressive program might be appropriate.

    Since there is no credible evidence that commercially available dewormers, properly used, have any negative impact on either horses or the environment I'd not worry about it, except as an expense item.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  7. #7
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    Nov. 13, 2010
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    Default

    I would rather have a large stall w/ run and plenty of turnout, than have a good trainer.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    Jan. 27, 2012
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    Thanks for the responses. Woke up this morning with an idea. I'm now leaning towards the nicer place and then perhaps can hire someone to haul us twice a month to a good trainer. Will sacrifice weekly lessons for twice a month because I'll have to pay someone to haul for me...but worth it if my horse is happy.

    Keep thinking about her standing in such a small space for 17 to 19 hours a day (depending on if I ride her that day or not) and it's driving me crazy! I know a lot of horses do this though...and handle it fine.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Oct. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSunMare View Post
    Gotta find a new barn because my trainer wasn't working out and so I have to move to gain access to a new trainer. But that's another story!

    Found a barn with trainer I really like but two things bug me:

    1. Barn is very old and are stalls are 12 x 12 and fully enclosed except for screens and small windows facing aisle and they just seem kind of dark and gloomy but the barn IS old and horses there seem pretty content. We have been spoiled with 14 x 14 stalls with runs...so this will be a change for her.

    2. This barn has been in operation for nearly 20 years and the owner/trainer knows her stuff but the one thing that got my attention was that she requires every horse to be on her worming schedule. They are worm every horse every eight weeks. No exceptions. My vet has always told me it is better to have them tested and then decide if worming is necessary. Barn owner says she has never had any problems from this routine. I'm not extremely educated on this subject so curious if this is common practice with barns?


    Thoughts?
    I wouldn't consider either one to be anything like a problem. Most barns require all the horses to be on the same worming schedule, and administered by the BM to make sure it gets done, and usually with the same product at the same time.



  10. #10
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    Jun. 16, 2007
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    I am kind of flabbergasted that more of you are not up to date on your understanding of worming practices today. You need to start paying attention. If you have not done fecals on your horses you have no idea what is happening. You are pretending that you are controling parasites if you run an every 8 week program. Parasite resistance to dewormers is getting common ESPECIALLY if you are in public barns with a lot of transitioning of horses coming in and going out. De-worming practices are a lot more complicated than in last 20 years due to parasite resistance.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by columbus View Post
    I am kind of flabbergasted that more of you are not up to date on your understanding of worming practices today. You need to start paying attention. If you have not done fecals on your horses you have no idea what is happening. You are pretending that you are controling parasites if you run an every 8 week program. Parasite resistance to dewormers is getting common ESPECIALLY if you are in public barns with a lot of transitioning of horses coming in and going out. De-worming practices are a lot more complicated than in last 20 years due to parasite resistance.

    I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I'm not testing. I've owned my horse for less than a year and so far I have been going by what my vet recommends which is a fecal sample followed by whatever worming he recommends...in the time frame he recommends. And that is what my current barn does as well.

    My issue was that I would prefer to stick with this method instead of every eight weeks without any testing. I think my vet's method is healthier. So...yes..I am up-to-date only in the sense I know what my vet recommends. What I'm not up-to-date on is the "every eight weeks no matter what practice". I was uncomfortable with it because it doesn't make sense to me to just give a horse something it may not even need in the first place. When it comes to medications or any kind of treatment, whether for people or animals, sometimes less is more in my view. But..true..I'm no expert.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12

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    It sounds like the worming schedule is a sticking point for you, so this barn is probably not the right fit for you.



  13. #13
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    Jan. 27, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halt Near X View Post
    It sounds like the worming schedule is a sticking point for you, so this barn is probably not the right fit for you.

    Well...that's why I posted to find out of the required worming such as this is common practice and if anyone has experienced any negatives from doing it this way. Sounds like one person suggested it it pretty common...so that's the feedback I was looking for on that note. Just looking out for my horse's best interests but I am still learning.

    Thanks!!



  14. #14
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    Jul. 26, 2007
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    Well, there is the usual way, and then there is the right way, and they're not always the same. I personally am in the "test and then treat" camp, but, that's just me.

    I would not be able to adjust to moving my horse to a smaller stall with less turnout, if the horse was used to better. More movement is better. I would put the horse's needs first, because otherwise it will get kicked back in your face in the form of vet bills, more need for training for a frustrated, PO'd horse, etc. I think it is easier to find a good trainer than to find a good barn. IMO.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    A 12 x 12 stall is a very nice size. I hate dark stalls, but perhaps you would be allowed to bring in a light on a timer? I do that sometimes, particularly if I have a mare I want to breed. I am also very pro-turnout and where I board they are out for a very decent amount of time every day with rare exceptions (flooding) and if I ever have the option of night-time or even full turnout I will take it. Deworming every 2 months is very much not the standard of care any more but if the barn were otherwise ideal I would not put that on the "deal breaker" list. I'd still have FEC on my own horses twice yearly. And I would maybe (politely and respectfully) periodically give the BO well-supported publications on the topic of modern deworming as an "FYI". If that sort of thing (again, done politely, respectfully, and infrequently) were repeatedly rejected outright I would think twice about the BO's horsemanship.
    Click here before you buy.



  16. #16
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    I am kind of flabbergasted that more of you are not up to date on your understanding of worming practices today. You need to start paying attention.
    You would have been FLABBERGASTED to hear about some of the MANY mistakes I made in my early days of horse ownership. And I daresay everyone here who's being honest would say the same. We are not all born knowing everything. Rotational worming was the standard of care for a VERY LONG TIME. Only within the last 2 years or so has FEC-based deworming become anything more than "some weird new method" around here, near as I can tell.
    Click here before you buy.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
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    A 12x12 stall is pretty standard. Bigger and airier is better, but 12x12 works OK for most horses. If she's laid back and not arthritic, she'd probably be OK.
    Around here, deworming every 8 weeks is still the norm. Not my favourite, but not worth turning down a barn for, to me. I'd rather that plan than no plan.
    The lack of T/O is a much bigger sticking point for me.
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    You would have been FLABBERGASTED to hear about some of the MANY mistakes I made in my early days of horse ownership. And I daresay everyone here who's being honest would say the same. We are not all born knowing everything. Rotational worming was the standard of care for a VERY LONG TIME. Only within the last 2 years or so has FEC-based deworming become anything more than "some weird new method" around here, near as I can tell.
    This is a great topic that seldom comes up. "Highest standard of care" in an optimal, clinical setting and "accepted practice" are often very different things. Our vet firm, a very well-respected and old one on the East Coast that services a great many very high end horses, in fact still endorses and promotes the standard rotational deworming with which most of us are familiar.

    Why? So it gets DONE, of course! Busy trainers and BO's have a lot to do; and a "problem" which is no problem is no problem, so why make it into one? If the horses are holding weight, slick & shiny, not having digestive issues, etc., one CAN assume safely that a clinically-significant load of parasites is not causing them issues.
    It takes me roughly half and hour and $50 to deworm 20 horses with generic Ivermectin; what it would take in my time and the vet's, not to mention vet bills many clients would question, to isolate each horse and collect a fecal, then run it, to mostly discover there was no need, makes this something that most people just aren't going to do.

    The private owner, with 1 or 2 horses, who wants their horse to have a ZERO parasite population (something that Nature never intended, BTW) may find this something worth their time and money. Or not! Most big barns, except the ones charging you $1,600 + a month, are not motivated to micromanage this.

    I have run random fecal samples from our pastures several times over the years and the finding was "No worms, no eggs." That's made me pretty confident that the cheap, easy paste is doing its job.
    When a horse is very old, or a poor doer, or comes in thin, we use a Panacur Powerpac to clean him out just in case.

    Every barn is different, and may well have some good reasons for doing things the way they do; blanket judgements about any management practice are never a really good idea.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    This is a great topic that seldom comes up. "Highest standard of care" in an optimal, clinical setting and "accepted practice" are often very different things. Our vet firm, a very well-respected and old one on the East Coast that services a great many very high end horses, in fact still endorses and promotes the standard rotational deworming with which most of us are familiar.

    Why? So it gets DONE, of course! Busy trainers and BO's have a lot to do; and a "problem" which is no problem is no problem, so why make it into one? If the horses are holding weight, slick & shiny, not having digestive issues, etc., one CAN assume safely that a clinically-significant load of parasites is not causing them issues.
    It takes me roughly half and hour and $50 to deworm 20 horses with generic Ivermectin; what it would take in my time and the vet's, not to mention vet bills many clients would question, to isolate each horse and collect a fecal, then run it, to mostly discover there was no need, makes this something that most people just aren't going to do.

    The private owner, with 1 or 2 horses, who wants their horse to have a ZERO parasite population (something that Nature never intended, BTW) may find this something worth their time and money....
    The notion of FEC directed deworming is not to benefit each individual horse (and certainly not to have zero parasite infestation...constantly dosing with dewormer would be more effective for that), but to help prevent resistance to anthelmintics which are overused. There is a good chance that the vast majority of healthy horses that are reasonably well-managed do not need to be dewormed every 8 weeks or close to it, but in doing so we are encouraging resistance to any and all of the dewormers we have available. Eventually we will have some parasites that we can't kill because we have been inadvertently conditioning them for so long, and there aren't new drugs on the horizon. This is the risk of having these drugs available so cheaply, OTC.
    It is about the greater good, not the individual.
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Since there is no credible evidence that commercially available dewormers, properly used, have any negative impact on either horses or the environment I'd not worry about it, except as an expense item.
    ...and as a resistance issue, which is a very real problem today.

    Deworming every 6-8 weeks because the calendar or farrier appt said so is one reason we're having a resistance issue.
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