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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenike View Post
    Actually, Calm-And-Cool IS an illegal form of drugging. Whomever taught you it's only a psychological bandaid fed you a line of junk.

    If I'm not mistaken, C-A-C also tests (but I could be misremembering).

    I'm not sure where I stand with my opinion on the rider, but I am firm on my stance with this "trainer" and her connections. I hope she is shamed into "rehab" by this blog.
    Love this forum for the information I get, no one "outside" has EVER told me that stuff is illegal, and being new (like, less then a year of showing) it never occurred to me that an all natural paste would be anywhere close to drugging, paste didn't = IV/IM drugs in my head.

    Thank you guys, a LOT! I have found great ways to handle my gelding, but I was using that in the beginning before I found a way to handle him.
    Last edited by TBRedHead; Apr. 28, 2013 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Clarification


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #222
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    Aug. 12, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    Let me clear up my statement about the older rider who shows at the most 4 times a YEAR at unrated (read: backyard) competitions. First she is close to 70, started riding at mid 50's and is not the most athletic type person - meaning there people who pick up a sport and are natural athletes - she is not but she loves her horse and loves to ride. She has a lovely horse who is 95% of the time a saint, but as we all know even the most saintly horse can have their moments. So on the odd occasion she decides to go to a show to do an 18" cross rail class (at a trot) the trainer may give the horse something to keep the horse focused. Believe me if you knew the situation personally most of you would feel the same as I.
    I can empathize with the older woman. I'm solidly in middle-age and much closer to 70 than I am to 20...I'll be there soon enough. But, I don't understand what it is about horse sports that makes people feel entitled to participate in them, and compete in them, no matter what.

    Both my husband and I loved gymnastics as kids, but, as we reached puberty it became apparent that this was not the sport for us...he's 6'2" and I'm 5'10". Though we certainly could have continued to do it for fun, we'd NEVER have been able to be competitive at it, just too darned big! Thems the breaks, and we found new sports.

    Now, in the case of the older woman wanting to show, it's not hopeless without drugs, she still might be able to be comfortable if someone else worked her horse before she went in for her class, to make sure it was quiet and had seen any forseeable spooky things and was cool with them. Can't reduce the risk entirely, but if you want no risk at all, having anything to do with horses isn't the right activity.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #223
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    Aug. 28, 2012
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    Kansas
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    Quote Originally Posted by dags View Post
    Why doesn't someone just get on the horse and work it down?

    The above story is a factor in everyone's horsey venture. Age of rider isn't really relevant, most equines have at least a 5% capability of launching us into the next zip code at any given time. Pretty much everything we do is designed to keep that 5% under wraps, so I can't really see why this situation is anymore permissible than the others... If it's truly an appropriate horse for her than it shouldn't take that much work to get the occasional yee-haw out.
    This

    The 70 y/o rider situation is a textbook example of an ethical "slippery slope."

    Why can't they just find someone to hack the horse for an hour or two the morning of the show? There are always teenage girl barn rats (like I was) hoping to catch an exercise ride at a show.
    Last edited by californianinkansas; Apr. 28, 2013 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Clairification


    7 members found this post helpful.

  4. #224
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    Feb. 20, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I think it is relevant. See, the little kid can grow/get stronger. The teen-to-middle ager can learn to ride better. But what does the 70-year-old have? She's at the stage where she either gets this ultra-safe riding or nothing at all.
    She can always work on developing her moral center more, I suppose.

    She can also have her ultra-safe riding, on a drugged horse if she so chooses. BUT SHE SHOULDN'T BE COMPETING ON SAID DRUGGED HORSE. She can always go through unjudged if she just wants the experience - but the moment she goes through judged, while drugging her horse, all the "waahhh, the lady is old, doesn't she deserve safety" goes right out the window. No one deserves to cheat.


    22 members found this post helpful.

  5. #225
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    Mar. 30, 2004
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    Lexington, KY
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    Nobody is forcing the older lady to compete. I'm sure there are a lot of other activities that she also can't do, and coping with that is part of aging gracefully. Horse showing is to show off horse training. I think that riding a drugged horse is far more dangerous than riding an animal who is fully in his senses. The trainer should have some other tools in her toolbox for that lady. Heck, get one of those WP horses that trope and look stuck in molasses. If she falls off one of those, she's got issues.
    send some of their smart literate deer who can read road signs up here since ours are just run of the mill dumb ones who get splatted all over creation because they won't stay in the woods


    6 members found this post helpful.

  6. #226
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    Jan. 29, 2010
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    IMHO, an opinion which isn't worth much on this specific situation as I am a beginner and do not show, the blogger deserves - using a public school analogy as I was a teacher - a stern talking to / written warning and perhaps an in-school suspension - IOW an opportunity to learn and right her wrongs; but the trainer ought to be fired - from the sport. The blogger owes her competitors and judges a heartfelt apology, and I truly hope that she will make contact with those that are willing to help her and train honestly. The trainer is indoctrinating students into a culture of drugging / cheating -- not to mention the impact on the horses w/o a voice.

    As a society, we hold those in certain professions - professions of trust - to a higher level professionally & legally, because it is understood that they have greater influence and their actions therefore have greater consequences - for all of society. If it is discovered that a teacher is promoting cheating, that's a career ender. And, yes, with high stakes testing, there have been too many news stories about widespread cheating.

    For whatever reasons, we are not doing enough as a society re: cheating. Surveys of college students - undergrad and grad - show startling rates of cheating. Professional athletes cheating, business leaders cheating, politicians cheating -- kids have lots of role models for cheating. We seem to have embraced "any means to an end". I know that cheating has existed since the beginning of time; but, as an over 40 person, I do think it is more prevalent - and definitely more "acceptable" now than when I was a kid. We need to think about that and the "mind your own business" mentality. History is full of examples of good people who chose not to "meddle" re: the bad behavior of others.

    Lastly, several have mentioned being surprised that drugging / cheating goes on at the lowest levels. My understanding is that it is ALWAYS worst at the lowest levels - in MANY (maybe most - maybe all) sports. Lower level competitors hear about higher level people doing something and do not have the resources to do whatever it is in the relatively safest way possible w/ medical supervision/ guidance nor are there sufficient testing / enforcement / consequences to deter them. At the highest levels, there are - presumably - medical professionals who are aware of the potential risks, and the illegal things are done based on some kind of scientific knowledge. The trickling down creates a mess at the bottom which is justified by the behavior of those at the top.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #227
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    Jan. 31, 2010
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    I've read this entire thread before posting a response. I'm still mulling over some of the details, but I admit that I was extremely shocked as to who the trainer in question is - it goes against all I have been told about her prior to this thread and the blog that inspired it. I have not considered this trainer as someone to train with only due to distance - in other words, she came highly recommended but she is too far west of me, so logistically it just was not possible.

    I'm not saying I do not believe this is possible, but I suppose I am hoping some of my local IRL contacts can give me some insight. I have met so many people who like to put a spin on things to either sound cool or in an attempt to manipulate facts, that I am always aware that a person's motives may not be exactly "pure".
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people.
    W. C. Fields



  8. #228
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    Aug. 31, 2011
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    “I never wonder to see men wicked, but I often wonder to see them not ashamed.”
    ― Jonathan Swift
    I heard a neigh. Oh, such a brisk and melodious neigh as that was! My very heart leaped with delight at the sound. --Nathaniel Hawthorne


    10 members found this post helpful.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewey View Post
    “I never wonder to see men wicked, but I often wonder to see them not ashamed.”
    ― Jonathan Swift
    This is a wonderful quotation and sums up my feelings exactly. Though I guess we should be grateful that they lack the shame - makes it easier to see what they are up to.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #230
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    Dec. 28, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    Let me clear up my statement about the older rider who shows at the most 4 times a YEAR at unrated (read: backyard) competitions. First she is close to 70, started riding at mid 50's and is not the most athletic type person - meaning there people who pick up a sport and are natural athletes - she is not but she loves her horse and loves to ride. She has a lovely horse who is 95% of the time a saint, but as we all know even the most saintly horse can have their moments. So on the odd occasion she decides to go to a show to do an 18" cross rail class (at a trot) the trainer may give the horse something to keep the horse focused. Believe me if you knew the situation personally most of you would feel the same as I.
    I really empathize with the rider. It just sucks to be in a position where she really and truly wants to show but due to age/fitness/experience/horse/etc. she can't do it without the help of a drug. I can completely understand why the trainer would be tempted, and why, as her friend, you would consider it to be okay. Unfortunately, the fact is ... it's not okay. She is cheating. If she beats anyone, then they are being penalized for playing fair. Sure, it's just a schooling show and it's just a cross rails division, but maybe that's all they can afford.

    I have a good friend who has a fabulously fancy horse that can be a complete, raving lunatic. That friend has gone through hell and back in the last year and just wants to go to a show and have a good experience. Is it right to drug her horse so she can compete in a beginner class in a local schooling show?
    ~ In the chaos of the showing, remember riding should be fun for all, including our 4-legged kids.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #231
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    Dec. 22, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I think it is relevant. See, the little kid can grow/get stronger. The teen-to-middle ager can learn to ride better. But what does the 70-year-old have? She's at the stage where she either gets this ultra-safe riding or nothing at all.
    The little kid can also break her neck and never walk again.

    I am *all about* accessibility in this sport, but not at the expense of the essence of the horse. It is a dangerous sport, end stop. Taking the, for lack of a better and less cheesy word, "spirit" out of the horse in the Hunters correlates directly with increased drug use (yes it's always been there but it's coming to a head) and this runs along those same lines - endless manipulation of the animal to conform it to our standards or, in GG's case, safety needs. You cannot distinguish between the two without the line eventually blurring, and therefore neither can be allowed.
    ExchangeHunterJumper.com
    Over 120 quality hunters, jumpers, ponies & equitation sale horses worldwide, follow us on Facebook.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #232
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    Jun. 3, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    But what does the 70-year-old have? She's at the stage where she either gets this ultra-safe riding or nothing at all.
    She has the option NOT to go to horse shows, where she has to cheat to be "safe."


    10 members found this post helpful.

  13. #233
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    Sep. 24, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBRedHead View Post
    Love this forum for the information I get, no one "outside" has EVER told me that stuff is illegal, and being new (like, less then a year of showing) it never occurred to me that an all natural paste would be anywhere close to drugging, paste didn't = IV/IM drugs in my head.

    Thank you guys, a LOT! I have found great ways to handle my gelding, but I was using that in the beginning before I found a way to handle him.
    For the record, today at my lesson I told my instructor this (she's from the Arab world, going to dressage and jumping, she's been super helpful in getting him quiet, relaxed and balanced!) and she didn't know that either, she said it wouldn't have occurred to her either, although she never used it.

    And I'm happy to report, that I was THAT rider in the blog a year ago, the green/inexperienced with an inappropriately hot horse (I came with him, I'd bought him years ago), and this week he's super quiet and lazy! She needs a good trainer, I credit our success to my trainers and all the hard work we have been doing, and I'm not afraid of him anymore either. So if she's reading this, please go get a trainer that will help you get through his issues at shows, his issues through puddles, etc. Give it time, go to shows without pressure of showing, but training.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #234
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    Jun. 20, 2008
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    Please read the post again - she might go to a show 3 or 4 times a year to a 1 day unrated nonUSEF competition to do 2 or 3 U/S classes or dressage test, maybe the odd cross rail class, and I also say the trainer MAY give the horse some feed thru or oral calming paste like Quietex, B-Kalm but nothing stronger. If it were a show on a hot summer day, no; a windy early spring day - maybe. Would you have the same opinion if you gave a horse some B-kalm because the horse didn't trailer well? What if you were trailering to a competition? Would it be OK then? Again, I am in no way a proponent or in favor of using drugs in competitions but in a few situations their use may be appropriate - which is why some meds have acceptable dose levels. Would I have a problem with someone who gave their horse a Quietex so their horse would trailer safely to a show. No. I rode with this particular trainer for nearly 20 years, and when I first started w/ her she was probably the only trainer who didn't use Ace or whatever the drug du jour may have been. She never ever had to use any of that stuff, nor did she have to lunge or work any of our horses down. She didn't need to because she gave them lots of turn out, appropriate feed program,and allowed them to be well horses. Most of the time we didn't even need to take advantage of schooling in the ring during schooling breaks as we were well prepared at home. Because I know this trainer so well, and know she would never do anything to endanger the welfare of a horse, I can't fault her in the scenario of the older woman.
    Last edited by gottagrey; Apr. 28, 2013 at 07:36 PM.



  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    After leaving this barn, I did board at a barn where it seemed more horses than not were given Ace so their owners could even ride them - I thought that was absolutely ridiculous and needless to say I am not at that barn any longer. Will also add that trainer did not use any meds at all at rated shows however.
    The last sentence amuses me. You are wise to qualify your previous sentences, in light of this thread... you never know, COTH could probably find out who you are referring to..


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    The last sentence amuses me. You are wise to qualify your previous sentences, in light of this thread... you never know, COTH could probably find out who you are referring to..
    true



  17. #237
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    years ago in my hunter days one of my "show mates" was a 60+ woman, not great rider who showed a lovely adult hunter. She rode the horse to probably 3-4 bad distances every time, got left in the tack, slammed him in the teeth etc. He NEVER did anything naughty, but after about a year or so, he began to shake his head
    every time she rode him. I have always wondered what that horse was on...
    I will say that that barn did whatever it took to keep said rider happy - she had a couple horses, lots of $ and was happy to go to every show from Ky horse park to Saratoga and Vermont.
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martha Drum View Post
    She has the option NOT to go to horse shows, where she has to cheat to be "safe."
    Oh for pete's sake. When in a blue moon this woman decides to go to a show they are UNRATED,NON USEF, NON USHJA shows and they don't have policies regarding USEF banned substances. Therefore, she is not cheating to be safe, she is not exactly a Betty Oare.



  19. #239
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    Please read the post again - she might go to a show 3 or 4 times a year to a 1 day unrated nonUSEF competition to do 2 or 3 U/S classes or dressage test, maybe the odd cross rail class, and I also say the trainer MAY give the horse some feed thru or oral calming paste like Quietex, B-Kalm but nothing stronger. If it were a show on a hot summer day, no; a windy early spring day - maybe. Would you have the same opinion if you gave a horse some B-kalm because the horse didn't trailer well? What if you were trailering to a competition? Would it be OK then? Again, I am in no way a proponent or in favor of using drugs in competitions but in a few situations their use may be appropriate - which is why some meds have acceptable dose levels. Would I have a problem with someone who gave their horse a Quietex so their horse would trailer safely to a show. No. I rode with this particular trainer for nearly 20 years, and when I first started w/ her she was probably the only trainer who didn't use Ace or whatever the drug du jour may have been. She never ever had to use any of that stuff, nor did she have to lunge or work any of our horses down. She didn't need to because she gave them lots of turn out, appropriate feed program,and allowed them to be well horses. Most of the time we didn't even need to take advantage of schooling in the ring during schooling breaks as we were well prepared at home. Because I know this trainer so well, and know she would never do anything to endanger the welfare of a horse, I can't fault her in the scenario of the older woman.
    Honestly, from the previous post, I thought you were referring to the horse getting a hit verses the feed through or oral pastes. Admittedly, I may not have read it thoroughly enough. I thought since the topic was "cocktails" that was the train of though I was on.

    Lots of people use the calming pastes and feed throughs. Though for the purist, they too, are illegal as they are mood altering ( though I think it is more for the person, but I digress).


    a. Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood
    and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance
    of a horse and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances
    which stimulate or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous
    systems), or any metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, exceptas expressly permitted by this rule.

    My feeling is they have to keep that rule so "stringent", though not enforcable ( "won't test" being the marketing phrase), otherwise, people would be finding even more loopholes than they do now.
    Back to the regularly scheduled program..
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


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  20. #240
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    Thank you Pennywell Bay... I swear sometimes I think the trainer keeps an old tube of paste so she can just say to the woman - yes, see she had it, she'll be fine.. since the rider thinks the mare got her paste, she rides more confidently.


    3 members found this post helpful.

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