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  1. #21
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    For learning to occur there has to be consistency. That is the most important factor in learning for both people and animals. So if you can't be consistent, she is not going to get trained to go pee outside or on a pee pad.

    I would never withhold water from a puppy for that long...that just doesn't seem right to me?
    www.svhanoverians.com

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  2. #22
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    She is trained, but to go in the house. I agree with others, that you should have adopted an adult dog, because the puppy just can't hold it that long, and doesn't know what a pee pad is for.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  3. #23
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    I am leery of restricting water too. If you restrict water enough to see less urine you ought to be concerned that you're not keep your puppy in the best kidney health.

    There's no getting around that you can't leave a puppy for 8 hours and not expect urine -heck they don't overnight without needing to pee. You need someone to come in and spell your puppy in the middle of the day at least.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    She is trained--to pee in the kitchen. Which will make teaching her to pee outside very, very difficult. It's so much more difficult to retrain a dog that truly thinks okay to go potty inside than to just housebreak them properly from the beginning, but that's water under the bridge.

    I hope the OP is up for the task ahead of her, because it's not going to be fun
    Exactly this. She has been trained to use the kitchen as her bathroom. That's the problem with "pee pad" training; it's quite a job to retrain them only to pee on the pad, and move the pad outside. I suppose it could be done but it sounds a lot harder than just training them to pee outside.

    Basically what everyone else has said. Your first dog was highly unusual. This puppy sounds quite normal. About 4-5 hours MAX bladder retention at 4 months. Just the way it is.

    Aside from the physical limitations, puppies need frequent reminding, rewarding, and a patient owner who forgives their accidents.

    My dog's breeder sent instructions home with her puppies: "Housebreaking puppies is hard work! Take your puppy outside to go potty after waking, eating, playing, and about 20 more times during the day. If your puppy has an accident in the house, get a magazine, roll it up, and hit yourself over the head with it, because you didn't get them outside in time."


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    She is trained, but to go in the house. I agree with others, that you should have adopted an adult dog, because the puppy just can't hold it that long, and doesn't know what a pee pad is for.
    Isn't 8 hours a long time for even an adult dog to hold it though? I felt extremely guilty the one time my adult, housebroken dog got left inside for 7 hours (there was an emergency at the barn). I was amazed she hadn't peed/pooped/destroyed anything. I would not expect her to go without a bathroom break for more than 4-5 hours. Is that wrong?
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey



  6. #26
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    Well, at the risk of invoking the wrath upon myself also, I'll chime in...

    Both of our dogs (shepherd/lab mixes), we adopted when they were around 4 1/2 months old. We have a HUGE crate (like great-dane-size huge); each puppy spent the workday in the crate, with water (no food), sleeping blanket, and safe toys, with space to potty if they had to go. DH and I are gone for work a total of about 9 1/2 hours per day, 45 minutes from home, and we never had a dog-walker come in, so our dogs went for that long during the week.

    We expected (but never punished) accidents in the crate... After work hours, the dogs were never out of our sight; we had baby gates throughout the house and we gated them in whatever room we happened to be in, so we could see if they were starting to sniff around for a place to go. And we would regularly take them outside A LOT in the evenings-- probably every hour or so.

    Neither dog ended up being particularly difficult to house-train... not counting accidents in the crate, I don't think we had to clean up more than a dozen or so "oopsies" before they figured out the routine.

    One of our dogs just stopped pottying in the crate on her own at about 6 months; the other one, we started restricting the size of the crate when she was about 7 months old and that stopped the pottying pretty much immediately.

    Was it an ideal situation, working and having a 4-month old puppy at home with no potty breaks? No. But it worked out eventually, with time and patience.
    *friend of bar.ka

    "Evidently, I am an unrepentant b*tch, possible trouble maker, and all around super villian"


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  7. #27
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    At the risk of being attacked like the OP....
    MANY people work 8 hours a day and own a puppy at some point or another. Its not the end of the world if the OP cannot figure out a way to get the puppy out multiple times a day during work hours.

    What is important is for the OP to understand that if that cannot be worked out, then there is no way she/he can blame the puppy. It's just going to take longer to teach the pup how to be housebroken. OP will be working on this longer than they would if the pup could be taken out to potty during the day.

    I would invest in a crate, so the kitchen is no longer the giant bathroom. That would be a good place to start.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Event4Life View Post
    Isn't 8 hours a long time for even an adult dog to hold it though? I felt extremely guilty the one time my adult, housebroken dog got left inside for 7 hours (there was an emergency at the barn). I was amazed she hadn't peed/pooped/destroyed anything. I would not expect her to go without a bathroom break for more than 4-5 hours. Is that wrong?
    We have been delayed long enough that our dogs were in the house one day for almost 12 hours, and when we got home and let them out, the Golden just layed down on the deck and enjoyed the sun. We had to boot him off to go potty. Some dogs can go longer than others. Also, I think it helps to not have a set schedule, then if I am kept longer than I expected, I don't have two dogs at home tearing the house apart because I'm 10 minutes late.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    At the risk of being attacked like the OP....
    MANY people work 8 hours a day and own a puppy at some point or another. Its not the end of the world if the OP cannot figure out a way to get the puppy out multiple times a day during work hours.

    What is important is for the OP to understand that if that cannot be worked out, then there is no way she/he can blame the puppy. It's just going to take longer to teach the pup how to be housebroken. OP will be working on this longer than they would if the pup could be taken out to potty during the day.

    I would invest in a crate, so the kitchen is no longer the giant bathroom. That would be a good place to start.
    A crate would work but it has to be a big crate, large enough for there to be a bathroom area, and an area that is kept clean. If given the choice, the puppy will not pee on their own bed, and it's only fair to make sure they have that chance. If you can't get a crate that is large enough for this (or can't fit it in the kitchen) then I would advise against a crate because they will have to eliminate in their sleeping space. Which is unfair, but also a very bad habit that you don't want them to learn.

    We had a puppy sitter for a few months. We were lucky that my cousin was a college student in town and could use the extra money. She came at 4 hours after crate time for a month or two, then started pushing it out: 5 hours, 6 hours, and eventually when the puppy was about a year old we stopped using one. We could have stopped sooner, but it was great for us.

    We also made sure the puppy had a couple of hours out of the crate in the a.m. with some hard playtime so that we knew he would sleep soundly for at least 4 hours. That made thing much easier.


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  10. #30
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    I disagree that they can't physically hold it. I brought my last puppy home at 9 or 10 weeks and by the second or third night he was sleeping 8 hours through the night with no accidents.

    Awake during the day is a whole other story and I would not expect a puppy to hold it the 10 hours I'm gone at work (my puppies can come to work with me which is what allowed me to work and raise puppies!).



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtdobes View Post
    I disagree that they can't physically hold it. I brought my last puppy home at 9 or 10 weeks and by the second or third night he was sleeping 8 hours through the night with no accidents.

    Awake during the day is a whole other story and I would not expect a puppy to hold it the 10 hours I'm gone at work (my puppies can come to work with me which is what allowed me to work and raise puppies!).
    Of course they can usually hold their bladder if they are sleeping, and some puppies can hold it more than others. (I also suspect it has a lot to do with how soundly they sleep as well.) My first brittany always needed a mid-night potty break between 8 weeks and 4 months or so; my 2nd one fell asleep promptly at 9:20pm and nothing at all would wake him up enough to potty one more time before 5:30am. (We tried, no luck). 3rd puppy was more like the first one.

    It's not that they *can't* hold their bladder at times - it's more about what is reasonable to EXPECT for bladder control. It is unlikely that a puppy will sleep all day long in their crate. And therefore, it is not reasonable to expect them not to have an accident (or need a potty break) at 4 months of age.

    It's like potty training babies. If you get home and your puppy has not had a crate accident for a while, you know they can be expected to hold it for longer. (Sort of like when a toddler wakes up dry after an afternoon nap - they can hold it, and can start potty training. But when they wake up wet...too early).



  12. #32
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    Yes, that's why I said awake is a whole other story, etc etc.

    And I know nothing about training babies...



  13. #33
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    Interesting. So I'm genuinely curious, because growing up we always had a dog door and huge backyard which meant Sawyer could come and go as he pleased while we were at work/school. Do most people who have adult, house trained dogs without a dog door and work full time not let them out in the middle of the day? I'm planning ahead for when I'm teaching full time, and I always assumed I'd have to either find a place with a fenced in backyard, or hire a dog walker.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Event4Life View Post
    Interesting. So I'm genuinely curious, because growing up we always had a dog door and huge backyard which meant Sawyer could come and go as he pleased while we were at work/school. Do most people who have adult, house trained dogs without a dog door and work full time not let them out in the middle of the day? I'm planning ahead for when I'm teaching full time, and I always assumed I'd have to either find a place with a fenced in backyard, or hire a dog walker.
    I have a large, fenced in back yard but no dog door for my 2 adult dogs (well, one will be 2 in June, but she's super easy and I consider her an adult now). I get up at 6am and let them right out for about 15 minutes, then take them for a fast-paced walk for about 45 minutes. They get another 20 - 30 minutes out back (if they want it), along with interaction with us while we get ready to go, and then they are in while I'm gone all day, 8am until 5:30pm. Neither are in crates, but they are confined to living room and kitchen/family room combo via 2 baby gates. As soon as I get home, out they go, and I try to get in another walk...although some nights we opt for long games of fetch instead.

    I should note, I got the almost 4yo (Goldendoodle) when she was an 11 week old puppy. At the time I was still married, and my xDH worked second shift, so he let her out all during the day until he had to leave at 3 - so she only had max of 2.5 hours in her crate during the day. She is incredibly smart and was super easy to train, but there's no way I would've let her go more than 3 or 4 hours between potty breaks. When I added the second dog several months ago, the criteria was: no puppy and already house-trained - because I can't get home during the day, and there aren't dog-walking/sitters in this area.


    For this OP, my heart goes out to you and I hate the pile-up you are receiving. I can well imagine how frustrating it is to have your pup outside most of the day and she comes in and potties in the kitchen. I would ask this, are you keeping her tethered to you at all times while you're home? If not, try this! That way, you know at all times where she is and what she's doing. Also, you will get to know her signs that she has to potty right away - as soon as she starts to sniff the floor, scoop her up and out she goes! Stay out there as long as it takes and make a big deal as soon as she potties. I mean, a BIG DEAL - lots of "GOOD GIIIIIRRRRRLLLLLL" and "WOO HOOOO." It won't take long for her to get it - that mix (lab/shepherd, right?) should be pretty smart.
    “Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of Solitaire. It is a grand passion.” ~Emerson



  15. #35
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    I think the OP may have been better received had it not painted a 4 1/2 month old puppy as 'bad' for peeing in the house. Blaming the dog will and has gotten everyone's hackles up.

    OP, in addition to some good advice I hope you've realized that you can't blame the dog for this. She's still a baby, and since you can't get her out during the day you're going to have to make concessions on how quickly and the method to get her house trained. If you still refuse to use a crate, try covering the entire floor with the pee pads or newspapers. Once she starts to use those for her business, start to reduce the area covered with them. The idea is to get them down to one square and then take that outside to bridge the gap of where she is supposed to go.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    At the risk of being attacked like the OP....
    MANY people work 8 hours a day and own a puppy at some point or another. Its not the end of the world if the OP cannot figure out a way to get the puppy out multiple times a day during work hours.

    What is important is for the OP to understand that if that cannot be worked out, then there is no way she/he can blame the puppy. It's just going to take longer to teach the pup how to be housebroken. OP will be working on this longer than they would if the pup could be taken out to potty during the day.

    I would invest in a crate, so the kitchen is no longer the giant bathroom. That would be a good place to start.
    I do agree with a lot of this. It is possible to do it, if you accept that it will take longer. What has upset me was the comment about restricted water when the puppy isn't running around playing. Her body knows when she needs water, and I would be worried about damaging her kidneys. I don't mean for it to be a pile on, but I think restricted water during the day is not ok.


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  17. #37
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    I think the OP may have been better received had it not painted a 4 1/2 month old puppy as 'bad' for peeing in the house. Blaming the dog will and has gotten everyone's hackles up.

    OP, in addition to some good advice I hope you've realized that you can't blame the dog for this. She's still a baby, and since you can't get her out during the day you're going to have to make concessions on how quickly and the method to get her house trained. If you still refuse to use a crate, try covering the entire floor with the pee pads or newspapers. Once she starts to use those for her business, start to reduce the area covered with them. The idea is to get them down to one square and then take that outside to bridge the gap of where she is supposed to go.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Event4Life View Post
    Interesting. So I'm genuinely curious, because growing up we always had a dog door and huge backyard which meant Sawyer could come and go as he pleased while we were at work/school. Do most people who have adult, house trained dogs without a dog door and work full time not let them out in the middle of the day? I'm planning ahead for when I'm teaching full time, and I always assumed I'd have to either find a place with a fenced in backyard, or hire a dog walker.
    I have two full grown dogs (well, one is 10 mo old, but she is effectively "full grown" for this discussion) that are kept inside in an xpen while we are not at home.

    They are left for 8 - 9 hours during the day without incident, without a dog walker or any other visitors to let them out. Sometimes we come home for lunch, and they appreciate a romp in the backyard, but it's not required. In 20 years of dog ownership, I've never had a dog that HAD to be let out during the day, barring puppies or sick dogs, and I've never had anything like a dog door set up.

    When my current young dog was a puppy, we got her from the breeder at about 10 weeks and I worked at home for a week to give her a very solid head start on the house breaking thing. She was VERY easy, and I think that was at least partially due to her age--an extra couple weeks with mom gave us a considerable amount of maturity over an eight week old puppy. Once I went back to work, my husband and I staggered our lunches so the puppy got out twice during the day (so I'd come home at 11, he'd come home at 2, and then I'd be home at 5.) The puppy was crated. This method worked beautifully, and I think we had a single accident in the crate and only when one of us was detained. Somewhere around 5 months we went to one visit outside at lunch and by 7 months or so we were able to leave her the whole work day. By the time she was about 8 months, she was reliable enough to leave in an xpen with our other dog instead of the crate. Any accidents she had were PURELY OUR fault because we weren't paying enough attention and as long as we did OUR job the puppy went potty outside.

    I think the above is an ideal example of how to handle housebreaking a puppy while you work. It's certainly not the ONLY way, but it sure did work for us, and I think it was exceedingly fair to the dog.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Event4Life View Post
    Interesting. So I'm genuinely curious, because growing up we always had a dog door and huge backyard which meant Sawyer could come and go as he pleased while we were at work/school. Do most people who have adult, house trained dogs without a dog door and work full time not let them out in the middle of the day? I'm planning ahead for when I'm teaching full time, and I always assumed I'd have to either find a place with a fenced in backyard, or hire a dog walker.
    My two adult dogs easily go 8 hours without a potty break. My mom is a stay at home mom, so they rarely go longer than 5 hours. But, when she's out of town I come from from college to take care of them. With my class schedule, they've gone 10+ hours without going out sometimes. They definitely run out the door the second I get home, but no accidents*. There was a very good reason we got an adult dog (1 year old) and not a puppy. He wasn't house broken, but it was much easier because he had the physical ability to hold it that puppies don't have.

    *Disclaimer- A few years ago the old dog started peeing while she slept/stood up, so she's on PPA. She's now 13.5 years old, deaf, a little senile, and very arthritic, but she can still hold it all day. However, we don't feel it's fair at her age, so we have a neighbor help her outside the few times I can't make it home in the middle of the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    I can't decide if I should saddle up the drama llama, dust off the clue bat, or get out my soapbox.


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Event4Life View Post
    Interesting. So I'm genuinely curious, because growing up we always had a dog door and huge backyard which meant Sawyer could come and go as he pleased while we were at work/school. Do most people who have adult, house trained dogs without a dog door and work full time not let them out in the middle of the day? I'm planning ahead for when I'm teaching full time, and I always assumed I'd have to either find a place with a fenced in backyard, or hire a dog walker.
    My three dogs stay in one large crate and do not need to go out during the day while I am at work. Then again, I got all of them as adults.



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