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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2013
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    23

    Default When should the kickbacks begin?

    I have a talented FEI level horse in full training with a trainer. He has been in full training with her for over 2 years, and she has brought the horse from 2nd/3rd. Although this trainer is very good, she has no other upper level horses of this caliber. She has already obtained a couple of sponsors directly because of my horse and his show record.

    My question is, as the sponsorships continue to come in, as I suspect that may, should I as an owner start to expect any "kickbacks"? By kickbacks I mean a reduction in show expenses (such as mileage, trainer expenses, etc) or maybe even a reduction in the training board price. If not now, then when? Ever?? Right now I pay 100% of all of the expenses.

    My boyfriend feels that I should be starting to get some kickbacks because this horse is basically making her career, and feels the trainer is "lucky" I am keeping my horse with her. I'm a little uncomfortable broaching this subject with the trainer, as I feel grateful that the horse has done so well under her training. However, money will become a real issue as the horse starts competing in CDIs...the first one less than 2 months away.

    Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 24, 2008
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    Default

    I thought sponsors paid for show fees?
    Dawn

    Patience and Consistency are Your Friends



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
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    CT
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    Default

    Most sponsors provide product: free saddle, supplements, etc. It is the rare sponsor in dressage that provides cash.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Jul. 24, 2008
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    Default

    I guess your kick back is that your horse is doing so well in shows thus increasing his value and your enjoyment of his progress.
    Dawn

    Patience and Consistency are Your Friends


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2013
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    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rizzodm View Post
    I guess your kick back is that your horse is doing so well in shows thus increasing his value and your enjoyment of his progress.
    This is something I am paying for, so I don't really consider it a kickback.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2012
    Location
    Kansas
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    902

    Default

    I'm not trying to be snarky. I still sometimes have problems reading social cues.
    Did the OP intend her post to be read as satire?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Mar. 8, 2009
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    Montreal, Qc
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rizzodm View Post
    I thought sponsors paid for show fees?
    Sometimes, but usually they give you stuff (saddle/tack/clothes) so you represent their brand!

    OP is actually the type of sponsor you are thinking of right now. (I'm not talking about the OP, just in general) Rich owner who wants to promote his stallion, mares, or just enjoy being the proud owner of a winner! Or the horse is an investment to be sold once successfull. Partnership between trainers and owners are often viable.

    OP, what is your goal with this horse?

    If you'd decide tomorrow to find someone who would pay you/or ride for free/split winnings/whatever related to money, who would that be? Have you someone in mind? Anyone already asked about leasing it or making a deal with you?

    What if your current trainer doesn't want to change the deal she has with you? Who's going to ride/show the horse?

    Just throwing questions out there.

    This matter should be discussed between you and your trainer.

    And remember that the best way to make money out of a horse is to sell it!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2013
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    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by californianinkansas View Post
    I'm not trying to be snarky. I still sometimes have problems reading social cues.
    Did the OP intend her post to be read as satire?
    No...not in the least.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 20, 2006
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    top o' the world!
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    Default

    To me, it appears that the OP thinks they are entitled to reduced fees because the trainer picked up more clients. As a trainer myself, I would wonder why in the world should I be expected to work harder and put in more hours for LESS pay! The only thing I would be willing to compromise on if I were in your trainer's shoes is to keep you at the current fee rate when/if my rates were to increase. Basically grandfathering you in at the original rates as a long time client. I never give reduced rates though. It isn't fair to me.
    Horses don't lie.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2013
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    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Sometimes, but usually they give you stuff (saddle/tack/clothes) so you represent their brand!

    OP is actually the type of sponsor you are thinking of right now. (I'm not talking about the OP, just in general) Rich owner who wants to promote his stallion, mares, or just enjoy being the proud owner of a winner! Or the horse is an investment to be sold once successfull. Partnership between trainers and owners are often viable.

    OP, what is your goal with this horse?

    If you'd decide tomorrow to find someone who would pay you/or ride for free/split winnings/whatever related to money, who would that be? Have you someone in mind? Anyone already asked about leasing it or making a deal with you?

    What if your current trainer doesn't want to change the deal she has with you? Who's going to ride/show the horse?

    Just throwing questions out there.

    This matter should be discussed between you and your trainer.

    And remember that the best way to make money out of a horse is to sell it!
    The horse is not for sale, and likely won't ever be. Goal is to have the horse competing successfully on the large tour/GP. I have had a couple of trainers approach me about the horse, although no specifics were discussed because I am pretty happy with the current trainer.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec. 23, 2010
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    Lancashire UK, formerly Region 8
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    Default

    Think of it this way: if your trainer is relatively inexperienced/unknown, the fees you are paying her are likely MUCH lower than you would pay to someone with an established reputation. It seems like the fairest "kickback" you can expect is for her to keep her fees the same for you despite her growing reputation. Yes, she may have got there riding your horse, but PSG horses aren't so impossible to develop. It's the rider/trainer skill that's the gem. You are under no obligation to enter CDIs.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2012
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    2,035

    Default

    Do you intend to ride and show the horse yourself? If that's the case, then you are getting what you pay for and you will be able to enjoy his skills yourself. If you are sponsoring the horse, in the same way that wealthy patrons buy horses for BNTs to compete, then your reward should be to share in any prize money and to reap the glory of being his owner.

    If you are not the kind of person who can sit there and wave from the stands and write big checks (I know I am not!) and be gracious about it, then that's something to consider. Maybe you should sell him if he's not a horse you can eventually take over riding.

    Or, tell your boyfriend to mind his own business.
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!


    7 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2010
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    Alberta
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    Default

    I don't think the OPs question is that off the wall. I can see that this is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but that the OP is paying full price, while the rider is getting the benefit of a ride on a horse they might not be able to otherwise afford.

    I would think the trainer may want to make a compromise in order to keep the ride, but not sure how that agreement could be reached.

    Maybe a conversation such as:

    "I really like all that you have done with Horse and I am excited to see him continue to move up the levels with you. I want to keep supporting his and your show career, but am hoping there is something we can do to make his expenses more manageable."
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!


    21 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2013
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    23

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback so far. I don't necessarily think I am entitled to anything really. I am honestly just wanting some opinions on this.

    To fatwhitepony, to play devil's advocate, I'd think a trainer wanting to make a name for herself *might* consider concessions, given the ability of the horse, and the likelihood that this horse could help her become known as a high profile trainer. At least that seems reasonable to me. Perhaps I am wrong? That's why I'm here getting opinions....


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
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    Mar. 8, 2009
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    Montreal, Qc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Or, tell your boyfriend to mind his own business.
    Yes this! ^^ LoL

    OP, I would sit down calmly with your rider and put your cards on the table. The CDI's are going to be expensive and you don't want to be resentful at the shows.

    And you could discretely approach other owners and trainers and ask them how they work things out. Not in details of course but to give you a general idea of this type of partnership you'd like to have.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2013
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Do you intend to ride and show the horse yourself? If that's the case, then you are getting what you pay for and you will be able to enjoy his skills yourself. If you are sponsoring the horse, in the same way that wealthy patrons buy horses for BNTs to compete, then your reward should be to share in any prize money and to reap the glory of being his owner.

    If you are not the kind of person who can sit there and wave from the stands and write big checks (I know I am not!) and be gracious about it, then that's something to consider. Maybe you should sell him if he's not a horse you can eventually take over riding.

    Or, tell your boyfriend to mind his own business.
    I have a back injury, so I am unsure as to whether I will ever be able to reap the benefits of this training. Maybe one day....so while I may ride him in the future, I'm not certain. I definitely don't consider myself a "wealthy sponsor". I do ok...but I am not Jane Brown


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2001
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,382

    Default

    I would have to agree with a few other people, no kickbacks. And as you said for yourself, you are getting what you paid for. As a professional, that puts in a lot of time, effort, sweat into helping make the horse you now have and presumably love, I would be a little offended if you suddenly wanted to pay me less. And yes, I get that recognition and sponsorships are great, and that your horse is helping build a career and I don't think expecting your rates to remain the same as her reputation grows would be off base. But for someone to do what you've paid them for, do it very well, and then you want to pay them less?? In a business where trainers aren't rolling in dough in the first place? No.

    As someone else said, another name trainer might very well charge you more. And secondly, you are under no obligation to show.
    You know, if you took this jello, put it in a mold and froze it, you could be like look....an emerald. Dude, I'd kick some guys ass he ever tried to give me a jello ring.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2001
    Location
    Colorado
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    1,382

    Default

    I will add an addendum to my previous post. I have an uber talented TB mare (jumper) that I started over fences for her ammy owner. The mare is both seriously difficult and seriously talented. To the point where her owner will probably never even begin to delve into the mare's talent pool. She will tool around in the local 2'6" jumpers and be happy as a clam.

    I on the other hand, love the mare, and want to take the mare to shows. It's good advertising for me, and good experience, especially if we do well. Since the owner has no ambition to show the mare at an upper level, I do not expect her to pay for me to take the mare in my classes.
    You know, if you took this jello, put it in a mold and froze it, you could be like look....an emerald. Dude, I'd kick some guys ass he ever tried to give me a jello ring.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2005
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    best place so far
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    Default

    I totally understand the emotional frustration of paying all the bills and someone else getting the accolades. However, you are paying for a service that according to your own admission is being fulfilled very well. The service you are paying for is full board/ training and campaigning of your horse so you can reach YOUR goal of your horse competing at GP (based on what you stated above). That is it, nothing more, nothing less. it sounds like your trainer is doing exactly what she is being paid to do, is succeeding at doing it and in return her business is improving (i.e.; getting new clients, sponsorships, etc.). She can, and should, be thankful you have given her your business, but she does not have to be indebtedness to you.

    It should not be a feeling of "she would not be there without me", but rather "she has done a great job with my horse and has fulfilled her job requirements".

    I own a small animal hospital and get comments from some of my best clients (i.e.; the ones that spend the most in my hospital...usually the breeders) things like "if it wasn't for me you wouldn't have gotten that new x-ray machine". I never answer back, just smile and nod, but I would love to say "and you got in return my time, my knowledge, my surgical skill, my care"...because that is exactly what I get paid to do!!!

    Huge congrats of having a fabulous horse and trainer!! Continued success....
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html


    9 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb. 27, 2005
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by halteralter View Post
    Thanks for the feedback so far. I don't necessarily think I am entitled to anything really. I am honestly just wanting some opinions on this.

    To fatwhitepony, to play devil's advocate, I'd think a trainer wanting to make a name for herself *might* consider concessions, given the ability of the horse, and the likelihood that this horse could help her become known as a high profile trainer. At least that seems reasonable to me. Perhaps I am wrong? That's why I'm here getting opinions....
    Suppose the trainer will give you some sort of break on the training because the horse is helping build trainer's reputation? What guarantee does the trainer have that you will continue to keep the horse with them to continue the reciprocal relationship?

    I've seen many occasions (and was there once myself) where a trainer has given a substantial break in fees to an owner of a really nice horse (usually because owner complains of all the costs)...and then a bigger name comes along that wants the ride and whoosh! the owner dumps the trainer that made the horse and somehow comes up with far more money to pay the bigger name.

    Giving a break in costs needs to come with some sort of long term guarantee so the trainer doesn't sink their heart and soul...and loses income...on a horse that will get yanked out from under them. It has to be a two way street if a client wants a "deal".


    9 members found this post helpful.

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