The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 55
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov. 29, 2008
    Posts
    3,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tangledweb View Post
    Americans talk about freedom a lot, but many Americans seem to have forgotten what freedom means.

    Freedom is not about protecting the right of people like you to do things that you like to do. That's just self interest.

    Freedom is about protecting the right of people different than you to do things you don't like.

    If you want to interfere with others building mosques, getting abortions, waving offensive signs, marrying who they want, or voting then you don't really believe in freedom.
    I'll agree with that.

    Now here's a question...

    If freedom is about not interfering with what other people do, then what of those individuals and groups who choose to live by a philosophy of interfering with others?

    Can the concept of freedom stand to allow the existence of that which inhibits freedom?

    But if the concept of freedom takes any action to stop the activity of those who inhibit freedom, is it still freedom, or has it become something else?



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov. 29, 2008
    Posts
    3,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Americans are not one size fits all, sorry.

    There are many true americans that are not for freedoms, but follow extremist ideas and are not any less americans for it.

    One just the other day told me, when she retires, she is going as a missionary for her church to China, because there is a big need to bring Jesus to the chinese.
    An in most measures perfect, all american lady all her life.

    She is not any less an american than those that wonder about her need to go tell others what they need to believe to be good humans, others of a completely different culture, much older than the one she wants to represent and it's religion she wants to convert them to.

    Or what about animal rights extremists, wanting to convert all to being vegans and keep hands off animals and so impinging on the freedoms of the rest of us.

    What is an american?
    Sorry, it is down to, those that are natural born citizens or those that have a certificate of citizenship, nothing more or less.

    Any other pigeonholing we may want to put "americans" into just won't fit.
    Might it be true that all of those pledge allegiances to the flag we did in school we're just political propaganda?

    All those American history lessons too?

    Why did people actually join the services to fight for all of those wars in American history, what were they fighting for?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2007
    Posts
    9,066

    Default

    Down here we say: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.

    We need to learn to think globally. What is best for the people of the world, not just what is best for the USA. The Olympics in Atlanta were to me very strange, with Americans cheering for Americans, not cheering for the best athletes in the events.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    40,865

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    Might it be true that all of those pledge allegiances to the flag we did in school we're just political propaganda?

    All those American history lessons too?

    Why did people actually join the services to fight for all of those wars in American history, what were they fighting for?
    What about those that shoot people up?
    Are they any less americans because they did that?
    Less americans than the police that were shooting back?

    I think anyone that tries to define being an american will have trouble with that, the more specific they try to be about the qualifications to be american.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    852

    Default

    I think being an American citizen makes you American.
    Here is something I have been thinking about. Yes we are becoming a more global society, and the poster that said the elderly man identified people by state instead of country may have been on to something.
    As much as we all want the world to get along, we also want to feel like we belong, and if we belong to a global community, I think we miss the close knit feeling of "belonging" . Think of the sports rivalries, yankees vs redsocks, giants vs dallas etc. It gives you a sense of something that is always there, that you can be a part of. Mayors get involved, friendships form over these things and a lot of it comes from being from somewhere. Its tradition, and most traditions give people a feeling of comfort.
    I wonder if this is what cults and violent extremest sects give people that can't seem to find it any where else, just a place where they feel like they belong.
    Railgirl.blogspot.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan. 8, 2006
    Location
    B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,919

    Default

    Well if you wanted to be totally facetious (and yet entirely correct)

    What makes someone American, or Canadian or anything - is a passport given to that person by that governing body

    saying - you are now american/canadian/english/ swedish (take your pick)

    I think trying to identify what makes you 'a proper and true citizen' outside legal terminology is like that ever elusive snipe hunt.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExJumper View Post
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov. 29, 2008
    Posts
    3,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    Down here we say: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.

    We need to learn to think globally. What is best for the people of the world, not just what is best for the USA. The Olympics in Atlanta were to me very strange, with Americans cheering for Americans, not cheering for the best athletes in the events.
    But isn't it part the nature of being human, to hold allegiances to groups to which one belongs?

    How does the process begin, of influencing that "my group" instinct towards becoming one of a more all encompassing identity with a "world group"?

    Should we cheer only the best athletes, and not cheer the the others who try, or should we cheer everyone, and if we selectively cheer, don't we begin to differentiate the individuals we cheer into groups?



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov. 29, 2008
    Posts
    3,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    What about those that shoot people up?
    Are they any less americans because they did that?
    Less americans than the police that were shooting back?
    In my personal view, those individuals are not Americans, and I believe one of the purposes of the American law, is to revoke the freedom of those individuals.

    I think revoking freedom is equivalent to being revoked of American citizenship.



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov. 24, 2002
    Location
    Northern KY
    Posts
    4,467

    Default quite complicated to be sure

    My son fought for your son's right to protest war.

    I bet if you asked people in their 80's the answers would be vastly different than they are here.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov. 29, 2008
    Posts
    3,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndyrgal View Post
    My son fought for your son's right to protest war.

    I bet if you asked people in their 80's the answers would be vastly different than they are here.


    Back in those days, I think the concept of patriotism was much associated with being an American.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2009
    Posts
    3,371

    Default

    Might it be true that all of those pledge allegiances to the flag we did in school we're just political propaganda?

    All those American history lessons too?
    I went to school in another country for a few years and was surprised at the slant each country gave to it's history.

    I was reading later about the communist "indoctrination" of youth by making them salute the flag.

    Then I thought more about that and got a little creeped out.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jan. 27, 2004
    Location
    Yonder, USA
    Posts
    2,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post


    Back in those days, I think the concept of patriotism was much associated with being an American.
    IMO, the definition of 'patriotism' is very much like that of 'freedom' or 'American' in that it has evolved over time and is still very much open to a wide interpretation. And, within that exercise, some people are more comfortable with a binary definition while others are okay with more nuance.

    For example, is it patriotic to tow the party line no matter what or is it also patriotic to speak out if you think a mistake is being made that will harm the country? Hrrm. Put another way, are you a better friend or relative to those close to you if you supply unconditional support and never tell them when you think they're making a mistake?

    I think our definitions have had to change as the world itself has changed. Nostalgia makes the old days simpler and rosier, but I suspect every generation has had to grapple with their own definitions amid unrest and uncertainty.
    ---------------------------



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    40,865

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    In my personal view, those individuals are not Americans, and I believe one of the purposes of the American law, is to revoke the freedom of those individuals.

    I think revoking freedom is equivalent to being revoked of American citizenship.
    I am sorry, if you like them or not, they are still americans.
    More on the "ugly" american category, but still americans.



  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2006
    Posts
    1,820

    Default

    Beyond being an American by birth or naturalization, I am skeptical regarding ANY pronouncement regarding what heritage, beliefs or actions makes one an American, especially if it it's tied being a specific religion, political persuasion, ethnicity, supporting (or being against) actions of the US government, history of military service. These don't make someone less of an American but neither do they make them MORE of an American.

    These things are transient and often subject to the whims of the day. My grandparents on both sides were immigrants of German descent, though not necessarily from Germany proper (Dad's family was from Alsace, France; Mom's family from the former Yugoslavia). In the 1950s, having a German name, speaking German or having a German accent was suspect. Both my parents recall hearing being teased for being "Nazis" by other kids at school. I can bet that quite a few people (even if quietly or privately) would have said that my family weren't "real Americans."

    All 4 of my grandparents became naturalized citizens. I don't know about Dad's side, but my Mom's parents applied for citizenship as soon as they were able (after being in the US 5 years). They wanted to belong SOMEWHERE. They were refugees, officially listed as being people without a country, and could NOT go back.

    Today, no one questions that I'm American. I might be asked about my tongue twister Teutonic last name out of ideal curiosity, but that's about it. If (hypothetically since I'm childfree) I had children, the German connection would be stories about long dead great-grandparents and some yummy desserts that are treasured family recipes. Kinda how I feel about the fact that one of my great grandparents died in the flu epidemic of 1918....interesting bit of trivia, no personal connection.

    Ironically, my mother was recently contacted by some relatives still in Europe because there is a potential for my grandfather to be compensated (70+ years later!) for a house deemed to be unfairly confiscated from his family during the war years. If Grandpa (who is in his 90s and in very poor health) passes away before it's done, my mom would be eligible. Neither my mom nor I really care....it's nice that someone acknowledges what Grandpa went through, but not like we're going to hop on the next plane to Belgrade. This is home.

    BES
    Proudly owned by 2 chestnut mares
    Crayola Posse: sea green
    Mighty Rehabbers Clique


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2004
    Location
    Left coast, left wing, left field
    Posts
    6,310

    Default

    I would characterize nationalism as pride, concern and passion. I don't think it's any different to be an American than it is to be a German or a Canadian or Brazilian. And I think feeling that we are different and superior will be our downfall. That is not to say I do not love my country – I do! But I recognize that others love their countries and they are not wrong.

    One reaction to acts of terrorism that completely floors me is the attitude that the perpetrator had no right to do this to America of all places. On marathon day, US bombs hit a wedding killing 30 celebrants. How dare we?

    Getting back to my first point I think nationalism is understandable and true to human nature. But it can't be blind. There has to be an interest in making improvements, upholding things you believe it. One of my favorite bumper stickers took the (to me) offensive saying AMERICA RIGHT OR WRONG, crossed out the word "or" and replaced it with "THE". That to me is being an American.
    Arrange whatever pieces come your way. - Virginia Woolf

    Did you know that if you say the word "GULLIBLE" really softly, it sounds like "ORANGES"?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2012
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Being an American citizen means your allegiance is to the United States of America. We are not citizens of the world, however ideal and seductive that concept may be. We are a sovereign nation with borders that define our country, and a culture, and a language. Some of us may be immigrants, but immigrants who left their home country for this one, and pledge allegiance to America. Yes we are human beings, but there is a reason the human race divided itself into tribes and cultures and countries, and fight to protect their own. The genius of America was to create a government that would keep many diverse people free from tyranny and oppression, and allow its citizens to consent to being governed, by a government they create. You cannot be one who consents and has input, and enjoy the fruits of freedom, while still holding allegiance to another country. ( By the way, just being born here was not criteria for being a citizen until Lydon Johnson took office. That was not the intent of the fourteenth amendment. )


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2004
    Location
    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,298

    Default

    Horsehand's post has my complete agreement... Yet BES said the same in three words.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueEyedSorrel View Post
    This is home.

    BES
    Years ago, travel was long, arduous, expensive. People/families left their old home to make a new home in America. They didn't consider going back to the old country. America was their new life, home and country.

    When people can change countries in a few hours, America isn't home anymore. It's just a way stop for aid, freebies, education or whatever personal advantage to be had. Dual citizenship is a scam on one of the countries.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb. 15, 2004
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    7,976

    Default

    I don't think Freedom defines the Americans. Canadians, French, Germans, we are all FREE in comparison to North Koreans, Chinese, etc. It is not an American privilege only.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 2007
    Posts
    249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    I don't think Freedom defines the Americans. Canadians, French, Germans, we are all FREE in comparison to North Koreans, Chinese, etc. It is not an American privilege only.
    Freedom was not made in America.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    17,808

    Default

    Technically, an American is one who is a citizen of any country in North America, Central America and South America.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

Similar Threads

  1. American warmblood registry vs. American warmblood society
    By sporthorsegirl101 in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: Dec. 9, 2012, 10:02 AM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: Oct. 28, 2012, 05:29 AM
  3. Makes you wonder, if not GM then whom?
    By sunshinestate in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: Jan. 12, 2011, 10:21 PM
  4. Just makes you wonder!
    By shawneeAcres in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Sep. 16, 2010, 12:43 PM
  5. Eeek! American Apparel makes 'new' riding pants
    By AndNirina in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: Mar. 30, 2010, 12:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness