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  1. #1
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    Default Registry options for the following potential crosses

    I am considering breeding my mare next spring for a keeper foal. She's APHA registered and of more thoroughbred type. Her temperament is absolutely phenomenal. She has successfully dragged me through every whim and equine sport I've asked of her over the past 10 years until I finally settled on fox hunting. A bad bout of cellulitis as a 3 year old has led to early onset arthritis in one hock and while now pasture and trail riding sound she is never likely going to be up to carrying me first field on a regular basis. She is only 12. I cant recall how many times I've heard "I normally don't like Paints but I LOVE her!" from everyone from endurance riders to grand prix dressage trainers. If I could afford to clone her....

    I have narrowed down the prospects to the following sires:
    Salute the Truth TB (Boy Done Good)
    Barometric TB
    Roc USA
    and Soprano

    While I hope this would be a foal I would never have to sell, I would like to plan for any future. The mare has lovely conformation but improvements I would like to see are a higher set neck, added height and bone, greater uphill balance and shorter back.

    A TB sire would allow me to register the foal with the APHA. Of all the sport horse TBs out there I like Salute the Truth the best. Barometric is a relatively unknown, but heavily shares bloodlines with my TB fox hunter Al Amir whom I adore. Barometric is by Kris S who although several generations back in Al Amir he still shows his influence heavily.

    Roc USA looks to be very prepotent... his offspring all seem to bear his lovely front end. Soprano is right down the road from me and is the closest to my ideal of what I would like to see in a horse.

    My question is what registry options would I have if I chose Roc USA or Soprano? How important is it for a horse to be registered in the sport horse world even if it is only by the APHA?

    The mare is pictured in my profile for reference and is registered as Doubled Expectation.



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsymare View Post
    My question is what registry options would I have if I chose Roc USA or Soprano? How important is it for a horse to be registered in the sport horse world even if it is only by the APHA?

    The mare is pictured in my profile for reference and is registered as Doubled Expectation.
    You would be limited to a COP (certificate of pedigree, a record of bloodlines essentially, no full papers) with regard to euro-WB registries, and you would still need to have the mare and foal inspected.

    AWS/AWR or ISR would be the only "full" registry options, I believe.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson



  3. #3
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    If you are looking for a foxhunter prospect, might consider an irish draught. There have been some nice crosses from QH doing well eventing. Bridon Beale Street has been used as has Bridon Belfrey - there are a few others, just not sure off the top of my head. The RID will give you the option of registering as an IDSH (ISH)

    Here is the Belfrey AQHA http://www.benmarfarm.com/BenMarMint...SHGallery.html
    Epona Farm
    Irish Draughts and Irish Sport horses

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  4. #4
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    While papers are great you don't ride the papers...so I would pick the most ideal horse first and foremost. The part where you say "Soprano is closest to my ideal" says a lot.


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  5. #5
    gypsymare is offline Fox Hunter Premium Member
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    Thank you for the replies.

    While I have known some lovely Irish Draughts, I am not looking for that kind of bulk in this cross. There is also so much variation in that gene pool I think it would be more of a gamble than going with a stud who is very similar to this mare, or is known to throw his type.

    Photo album of the mare here: http://tinypic.com/a/2thk8/1
    edited to add that the first 3 photos are dam, sire and sire.

    Unfortunately I don't have any great conformation pics but it gives you an idea.

    Soprano is exactly what I would like to see as the result but I know that's not going to happen. Because the mare has some stock type heritage, I thought the idea of a stud who showed the opposite of her weaknesses would give me a better chance of getting the idea foal. Roc USA is very uphill and extremely short backed. His high neck set is stamped on every one of his foals no matter the dam. They used to have some additional dam/foal pictures on the site that were remarkable in the fact that no matter the mare's conformation, all of the babies had the same beautiful shoulder and neck tie in. Now a short back can equate to some choppier gaits which takes a toll after 15 miles of hard hunting but with hers being too long and his being too short... maybe there's a happy medium there.

    We're under contact on a small acreage very near to where Soprano is standing so if the sale goes through we will be located just a few miles away and I'll have an opportunity to see him and possibly work with the same vet. From what I understand his owner is a farrier as well and I'll be looking for one of those, too!
    Last edited by gypsymare; Apr. 21, 2013 at 09:27 AM.



  6. #6
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    Do you have a link to her pedigree? I couldn't find anything when I Googled Doubled Expectation.
    "It's never too late to be what you might have been." George Eliot



  7. #7
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    I have no suggestions for you as I know nothing about APHA lines, but wanted to say your mare has the kindest look to her! Love her coloring and her expression.

    Good luck!!
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  8. #8
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    You do NOT want to choose a stallion that has the "opposite" traits of your mare. You will be setting yourself up for a "Frankenstein" foal. You need to choose a stallion who complements her, but does not have any of her faults. Your mare's long back crossed with Roc USA's short one for example is NOT likely to give you a medium back, it's likely you will get either long or short.
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  9. #9
    gypsymare is offline Fox Hunter Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miichelle View Post
    Do you have a link to her pedigree? I couldn't find anything when I Googled Doubled Expectation.
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/doubled+expectation



  10. #10
    gypsymare is offline Fox Hunter Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blume Farm View Post
    I have no suggestions for you as I know nothing about APHA lines, but wanted to say your mare has the kindest look to her! Love her coloring and her expression.

    Good luck!!
    Thank you! Her personality is absolutely stellar. She's brilliant, and a lovely combination of sensitive and sensible. I know the color would be a plus on the foal, but being an overo, there's not a high chance it would convey and I'd love her just the same if she were plain bay. If I could dream though, I'd love to see a loud frame overo foal like her sire.
    Last edited by gypsymare; Apr. 21, 2013 at 09:23 AM. Reason: spelling



  11. #11
    gypsymare is offline Fox Hunter Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by everafterfarm View Post
    You do NOT want to choose a stallion that has the "opposite" traits of your mare. You will be setting yourself up for a "Frankenstein" foal. You need to choose a stallion who complements her, but does not have any of her faults. Your mare's long back crossed with Roc USA's short one for example is NOT likely to give you a medium back, it's likely you will get either long or short.
    Thanks for the advice. I thought it would balance her out but that does make sense.



  12. #12
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    You can breed a Paint to an Irish Sport Horse and get both ISH and Pinto papers AND get a heck of a sport horse prospect. We have a yearling filly by our Seattle Blues stallion (1/2 TB) now a gelding (not advertising!) and she is fantastic. VERY typy, a good mover, will be big, but not coarse and sweet as a kitten!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma


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  13. #13
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    As the owner of an 11 yr old Appy Sport Horse mare that I would like to breed in the next couple of years (before she gets too old!), I've thought about this a LOT. My mare is also 1/2 TB and I would like to improve on the same things that you do
    improvements I would like to see are a higher set neck, added height and bone, greater uphill balance and shorter back.
    Only I don't care as much about adding height or a shorter back. Anyway, I've narrowed it down to either breeding her to a TB (so I can register the foal ApHA) or Trakhaner (ATA has a 1/2 Trak registry). I feel that for future marketablity (even though I'd be breeding a "keeper" also) that color is important in breeds that are normally considered more of a stock type. Apps and paints without color are a LOT harder sell than with color even if they are half WB. My mare is homozygous for the LP (Appy) gene so no matter what I breed her to I'll at least get Appy characteristics and more than likely Appy color. If she wasn't homozygous I'd be looking at WBs that were.

    Since your mare is a paint I'd be looking at a TB with color or a WB with color, I don't believe in JUST breeding for color BUT there are so many nice stallions that you should be able to find one that fits all your criteria AND has color. Like it or not, color sells and you have a paint, might as well breed for one. JMO.
    "It's never too late to be what you might have been." George Eliot



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by everafterfarm View Post
    You do NOT want to choose a stallion that has the "opposite" traits of your mare. You will be setting yourself up for a "Frankenstein" foal. You need to choose a stallion who complements her, but does not have any of her faults. Your mare's long back crossed with Roc USA's short one for example is NOT likely to give you a medium back, it's likely you will get either long or short.
    Yes, this!!
    Breeding is not like mixing paint, where red and white make pink.
    It is more like taking 2 jigsaw puzzles, taking half the pieces from each, and making a new puzzle.



  15. #15
    gypsymare is offline Fox Hunter Premium Member
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    I'm not a fan of the tobiano coloring. Too much white to keep clean and am I the only one that thinks the change in color over the crest makes it look shorter? I don't believe I've ever heard of a homozygous overo. Typically you don't want to cross 2 overo horses for risk of a lethal white offspring. If I breed to a homozygous tobiano I could even get a tovero. No no no no! I have no desire to get up before 4 to make my horse presentable for the meet. No grays either!

    I'm actually surprised about the comments about correcting faults. I'm not talking about choosing a stud with opposite traits that are so pronounced that to the point that they are incorrect but that the stud should be strong where the mare is weak. Soprano has a long loin and it was commented on in his testing. I have yet to find a prefect stud though so there is always a compromise.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsymare View Post
    I'm actually surprised about the comments about correcting faults. I'm not talking about choosing a stud with opposite traits that are so pronounced that to the point that they are incorrect but that the stud should be strong where the mare is weak.
    Yes, exactly - but you're still thinking like paint mixing. Your mare has a short (but workable) loin.
    Soprano has a long (but workable) loin.

    You are NOT going to breed the 2 and get the perfect, somewhere-in-the-middle loin length. (paint mixing; blue+yellow=green/too long+too short, will NOT = just right)

    Instead you'll get his too-long loin with her low neck set or something like that (a piece from her jigsaw puzzle here, a piece from his jigsaw puzzle there...)

    Breeding to a stallion who's strong where she's weak means you look for the one who is perfect (in your eyes) at the points on her you want to change.
    If her loin is too short for your taste, the slightly-too-long one isn't what you want - you want the one that is absolutely perfect length. One that you look at and say "Yes, I want a loin (neckset, bone, whatever) EXACTLY like that!!" ~And then if you're lucky, the foal will get those jigsaw pieces from Dad.



  17. #17
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    Good advice! For example, my mare has her sire's (Davignon) rear limbs...not the best; a litlte straight, a little weak in the pasterns. So I always choose a stallion with very good hind leg conformation, and if an older stallion one that passes on that trait (I will look at the Hanoverian Staliion Yearbook for stats on rear limbs, pictures of offspring, etc.). I DON'T look for a stallion with short pasterns or overly angled limbs to "compensate" for my mare...I look for perfect to hopefully "fix" her negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverotter View Post
    Yes, exactly - but you're still thinking like paint mixing. Your mare has a short (but workable) loin.
    Soprano has a long (but workable) loin.

    You are NOT going to breed the 2 and get the perfect, somewhere-in-the-middle loin length. (paint mixing; blue+yellow=green/too long+too short, will NOT = just right)

    Instead you'll get his too-long loin with her low neck set or something like that (a piece from her jigsaw puzzle here, a piece from his jigsaw puzzle there...)

    Breeding to a stallion who's strong where she's weak means you look for the one who is perfect (in your eyes) at the points on her you want to change.
    If her loin is too short for your taste, the slightly-too-long one isn't what you want - you want the one that is absolutely perfect length. One that you look at and say "Yes, I want a loin (neckset, bone, whatever) EXACTLY like that!!" ~And then if you're lucky, the foal will get those jigsaw pieces from Dad.
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  18. #18
    gypsymare is offline Fox Hunter Premium Member
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    Thanks for all of your help. This has definitely been informative. With all of the responses that I've gotten I think I will keep Soprano at the top of the list and registries be damned. I still have another year to think about it, maybe two if this sale falls through.


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