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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Did you bother to read the Aiken story? They mention using their tracking dogs in downtown Aiken and for bank robbers who are most probably armed if they were able to rob a bank. They also say there are different dogs for urban and suburban settings.

    It's hard for me to wrap my mind around a non-biting dog following the blood trail of a wounded walker during the lockdown as a recipe for disaster. More detail, please. I can't even imagine what could happen that could be a disaster. The boat was in a yard open to a street, per photographs. One suspects that during the lockdown the streets and yards would be open, the residents would be inside, and the dogs would have few, if any, barriers to cross, given the wounded suspect.
    yep, I read it. Didn't think much of it either.

    "Dzohkhar Tsarnaev, who exchanged gunfire with police from the boat, was rushed to a local hospital, where he was in serious condition, Davis said"

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...9zK/story.html

    so if the suspect was exchanging gunfire, and he's injured, there is the trouble.

    But let's assume they didn't know where the suspect was (could have been in bushes around a residence) and the dog found him and he tries to shoot the dog, but misses and hits another LE? Or fires and the bullets enter a residence? Most people don't know dogs and if there is an officer attached to said dog (the officers I know don't loose their dogs, they are on lead), it's a problem at least for that officer.

    and more to the point, it doesn't matter. It's a done deal now.



  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    But let's assume they didn't know where the suspect was (could have been in bushes around a residence) and the dog found him and he tries to shoot the dog, but misses and hits another LE? Or fires and the bullets enter a residence? Most people don't know dogs and if there is an officer attached to said dog (the officers I know don't loose their dogs, they are on lead), it's a problem at least for that officer.
    In case within the last month or two in Herkimer, New York, the suspect did shoot at the dog when it located him, and the police were able to shoot the suspect, IIRC. So the police dog was instrumental in finding and stopping the suspect, even though the poor dog died in the process.

    Was it better in this case that the police never found the guy hidden in the boat, and a civilian did?



  3. #503
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    Well, I have to stick up for the canines. I've personally seen the dope dogs work and I've done trials with them. To prepare, I've done my own tests with the dogs and their trainers to make sure that dope alerts were not triggered by the handlers. I've done this with the GSD and Belgian Mal dogs. They are terrific. In Atlanta my friends handled the bomb dogs and I got to see how they worked. They were GSDs. Some of the sheriff's offices down in SE GA have the bloodhounds, and I've seen those dogs work. I've seen the cadaver dogs work. I've seen the scent dogs work at Lake Lanier where they have found bodies 20 ft under the surface of the lake. Some of our local dogs with the Savannah PD went up to NYC to search for survivors and bodies in 9/11. And our dogs in Savannah had not been in a big city like that, but they found bodies in the rubble and received citations. We even had an arson sniffing dog in Atlanta who could detect accelerants in building fires. I have a friend who has for decades trained dope and search dogs. The bloodhounds and the GSDs and the Mals all have extraordinary scenting talents that are spot on for tracking, even in horrific situations like 9/11. You should see these dogs in action as they are dedicated to doing what their handlers tell them to do.

    I've seen scent dogs trained and in actual action when the find what they were sent to search for. And sometimes police dogs have died because they were sent into houses where suspects were hiding with guns. Even though the dogs were wearing bulletproof vests. The dogs are put in danger in situations where suspects are dangerous and hiding, so that more cops and civilians are not killed.

    With the homeland security law, this suspect would be subject to being tortured to find out why he did the bombings. All rights are off the table then. So no use arguing about when he should be Mirandized.


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  4. #504
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    Was it better in this case that the police never found the guy hidden in the boat, and a civilian did?
    Wouldit have n=been better if the dog flushed him off the boat and he ran in to the house taking hostages?
    Two can play this game.
    The police DID find the guy because a civilian told them...without alerting the guy.
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    Seriously????????!!!! I thought his brother died of gunshot wounds in the shootout, or at least that's what I gathered at the time from the reporting. All I heard was "shootout with police...somehow a lined of cops appeared...he tried to run them down during his escape". Did he really run over his brother? Oh. My. God!
    i assume the older brother walked towards armed officers with guns a-blazin specifically so younger brother could escape.
    but you know about assumptions...!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #506
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    I was wondering if the police could have demanded a warrant for an article of the suspect's, to give the police dogs the scent, and if they had one, or what other means they were tracking him.

    And have also been wondering about our federal law enforcement after this. Have great respect for all LE - with several in the family - hard working, well respected.

    But during the past couple of years - know 2 retired CIA who couldn't carry on a conversation with a normal person - both very OCD. (One was a neighbor who drove us batty with constant remodeling, when everything was already perfect.) Last week watching some crime show about a murder, and the FBI had really bolluxed it up - was resolved with local LE. And now the FBI having dropped the surveillance on this guy.

    Have a feeling they should concentrate less on management/administration, and more on hard investigative work, with more emphasis on common sense? I mean investigate this kid by talking to the family?
    Being right half the time beats being half-right all the time. Malcolm Forbes



  7. #507
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    A recently retired friend of mine did contract "search and rescue" work for local, state and federal agencies. He had retired from a Texas police force as a K9 cop. His personal dogs were trained for specific work, very little cross training and his preferred breed for working is an Australian Shepard, among other things because their life expectancy is generally greater and health problems are generally less than some of the other more traditional police force breeds. The cadavers dogs looked for the deceased. His drug dogs looked for drugs. His tracking dogs looked for live people- interestingly he liked bitches for live tracking over male dogs. They had "attitudes" and could hold back the bad guys. He was sent down to New Orleans after Katrina and found 100 bodies in the rubble.

    I asked him one time who was the most interesting "bad guy" he tracked. He said it was an Asian man. That guy knew how to use the land, creeks and trees to cover his tracks- he ran like a animal. In his experience it was pretty predictable how someone would run once they dumped a car based on their ethnicity. Certain groups stuck close to interstates/highways while others used railroad lines.

    A tracking dog is only as good as it's training and it's handler. A search helicopter with infrared capabilities is only as good as the pilot flying and co-pilot looking at the screen. My own father went missing in Savannah, GA and within 3 hours a police tracking dog was brought in. I'm not aware of more than one being used. A helicopter with an infrared camera was used when it was dark, 5 hours after he went missing. Neither tool found my Father even though he was found the next morning 400 yards from his house. I'm not dinging the police department in any way, they gave their heart and soul to finding my Father. Sometimes the outcomes just don't go the way you want.

    On one news interview last night a former high level law enforcement worker said something changed in the FBI about 8 years ago as it related to data on file- I cannot remember the specifics. He flat out said it related to PC. If I find the link or something to support what he said I will share it. The man seemed credible and maybe the Boston attack will create a change for the good.


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  8. #508
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    We don't know the particulars in that Herkimer incident. Maybe, pure speculation on my part here, the fact that the dog was used, and got killed, represented, in some way we don't know, a failure on the expected scenario. Maybe, based on the way that incident worked out, the decision was made that search dogs would not be appropriate in this case.

    And, as far as the FBI dropping the ball, I'm confused. They investigated him, a couple of years ago, I think, at the request of a foreign government. At that time, they found nothing incriminating. They closed the case. There were no further complaints. Would you expect that every individual that was ever complained about and investigated be observed forever after? That, to me, smacks of a police state. It's very easy to say, in hindsight, what should or shouldn't have been done. I expect it's not so easy on a day to day basis.
    Originally Posted by Alagirl
    We just love to shame poor people...when in reality, we are all just peasants.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #509
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    Louise-exactly right, and totally on point. I'm sure the FBI get tips about thousands a year, and check them out. No one around the bombers suspected them, and they went back to their regular lives until the pictures hit the national news. In my mind they were unfindable until they bombed, and would have been until they struck again, except for the wonderful service of spectators, racers and the poor man who identified them the second he came out of anesthesia. I absolutely am convinced that the two brothers had many other bombings planned, and would have never stopped.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    ...and they went back to their regular lives until the pictures hit the national news.
    Incredibly, it was reported that the younger one went back to his college dorm and was there on Wednesday! Inconceivable.



  11. #511
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    I am not saying the dogs are not useful or well trained. I am saying that there might be a good reason they didn't use dogs or that they used them earlier and for some reason the dogs failed.

    I don't remember reading anything about dogs so it could be something like a blood trail that ended.

    Just recently we had a discussion about tracking (many of my friends do comp tracking with their dogs) and a friend got to follow a woman who tracks lost pets with her dogs. She has dogs that also track specific species. One does cats only, one does dogs only etc. In this case, it was a dog who went missing from a show. The handler arrived with four tracking dogs and used 2 of them. Both dogs came to the same conclusion, that the lost dog had been picked up (and thus the trail ended there) by a car at the curb. Remember the police don't always put everything out there. They might not have known how badly he was injured or if he was listening to the news reports as well, they might know something that we don't.

    Believe me, I know how amazing dogs are and how incredible their noses can be, but I don't know why the LE chose not to use them at the scene.



  12. #512
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    MHM-that is my definition of a soulless, stone killer, who is probably a sociopath. I think both brothers were exactly that, and would never have been stopped without the assistance of the public, and victims. And if that Aunt or mother or whoever she is, and the father in Russia don't shut up about 'my boys are angels' and 'they were framed, the pictures were faked' I'm going to scream. The father in Russia better watch it, because the Russians do not take people who assist Chechen terrorists lightly, and he might find himself in serious trouble.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    And if that Aunt or mother or whoever she is, and the father in Russia don't shut up about 'my boys are angels' and 'they were framed, the pictures were faked' I'm going to scream.
    I'm prepared to cut the relatives a tiny bit of slack. If they had no idea this was brewing, then their world has been turned upside down in no time flat, long distance, plus they have cameras and microphones shoved in front of them non-stop, no doubt. They would be smarter to issue a brief statement and then be quiet until they calm down and everything is sorted out, IMO, but obviously that is not their chosen response.


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  14. #514
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    Here's the news story about the younger suspect returning to college after the bombings:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...ViO/story.html

    And here's a new one about whether the older brother might have had brain damage from his boxing days:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...l8K/story.html

    On a happier note, here's a nice one about the ceremony before the Red Sox game on Saturday, which Boston won:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...cPM/story.html

    I think all of these articles will be available only to subscribers of the Boston Globe after today (Sunday).
    Last edited by MHM; Apr. 21, 2013 at 01:21 PM.



  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Here's the news story about the younger suspect returning to college after the bombings:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...ViO/story.html

    And here's a new one about whether the older brother might have had brain damage from his boxing days:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...l8K/story.html

    On a happier note, here's a nice one about the ceremony before the Red Sox game on Saturday, which Boston won:

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...cPM/story.html

    I think all of these articles will be available only to subscribers of the Boston Globe after today (Sunday).
    Many people i went to school with as well as a family member, know suspect 2 (names two long and confusing to type). All of this was very very close to me. Yes they have said he seemed nice and a "normal" kid but I'm just not buying into the fact that he was bullied into this, completely. Or whatever else is going around, building excuses for him and what he did. If this was a bank robbery or house burglary, then maybe. Why? Because theres a chance he could have been talked into with bribes and what not. But he planted a explosive in a crowd of people. There wasnt going to be anything he would get out of this besides killing people. No money, no drugs, no valuables.
    I dont know how you could feel sympathy for that or begin to analyze and think aw, poor kid, 19 and his older brother talked him into it. Maybe so but it isn't a excuse.

    Now this is comparing apples to oranges but i have completed a criminal justice course and when we got to a section on serial killers/rapist.. many appeared like nice, normal guys until caught. It isn't a surprise. It doesnt mean he isnt capable of doing what he did. It actually makes more sense because many are capable of such crimes have to know when to turn it on and when to turn it off, to get away with it.

    As far as the article on the brother. Plenty of kids have confirmed brain damage from sports and don't go plant explosives in a crowd. I cant stand the over-analyzing type society we live in today. Its excuses. Its a way to take our mind off of the real situation.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    Yes, that's what I've gleaned from several accounts - that the police tackled his brother when the brother ran out of ammunition and were handcuffing him when this guy comes barreling at them in the car trying to run them down. Who knows if he even knew his brother was on the ground there. I was so shocked, though, because this was the first I heard about it. Up until now I thought his brother wash shot. I can't even *fathom* running over a sibling...although I can't fathom planting maximally maim-inducing bombs at the finish line of the Boston Marathon, either. I just can't put the pieces of this together in my brain. Like CT and CO, I'm left with one word... why????
    I wondered if brother 2 ran over brother 1, expecting that the impact of the vehicle or tires would set off the explosives he was wearing [that was back when the report was that #1 was wearing a suicide vest which I think has changed]. I also wondered if in slipping into the driver seat after brother #1 got out and the adrenaline of the moment he accidentally threw it into reverse instead of drive? It was my understanding that he backed over them.

    Interesting about the brain damage from boxing. I had thought part of his angst maybe started when he could not pursue that title because he could not become a citizen? And while brain damage doesn't excuse bad behavior, it does explain the change in personality that some saw, the ability for radical ideology to look good to someone who should know better...
    And of course, there's every possibility they were just 2 bad guys. With guns and bombs.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/



  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    I wondered if brother 2 ran over brother 1, expecting that the impact of the vehicle or tires would set off the explosives he was wearing [that was back when the report was that #1 was wearing a suicide vest which I think has changed]. I also wondered if in slipping into the driver seat after brother #1 got out and the adrenaline of the moment he accidentally threw it into reverse instead of drive? It was my understanding that he backed over them.
    That's an interesting idea, that the younger brother was trying for a vehicular murder/suicide thing with the older brother's suicide vest. I have not heard any change to the statement that the older brother had a vest on. Or maybe the younger brother is just a bad driver, even under normal circumstances. Who knows?

    It will be interesting to see what, if any, information they can get out of the younger brother, assuming he survives.

    This article includes thermal imaging video of his capture. The technology is pretty remarkable:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st_read_module

    It also includes a link to another article that says people are already sending donations to the homeowner who found him to replace his $50,000 boat, which was shot full of holes in the capture.



  18. #518
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    Yes, according to police reports Brother #1 was on the pavement, shot full of holes, being handcuffed when Brother #2 ran over him while trying to escape. Brother #1 was wearing a vest, and another pressure cooker bomb was in the Mercedes SUV they carjacked.

    Reports are that after the bombing, that the Brothers went right back to their usual lives, and Brother #2 not only went back to his dorm after, but went to a party on Wednesday. I am firmly convinced that if the pictures had not been released, and that the brothers hadn't gone on the run or been captured, then there would have been many more bombings committed by the two men.

    CNN reports that the father (he and the mother moved back to Russia) claims he's going to come to the U.S. to be with his surviving son, and I imagine to claim the other son's body. He can forget that, because there's no way he'll get any type of visa, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians didn't even let him near the U.S. embassy. The Russians aren't very forgiving of the relatives of terrorists. I don't think the Russians believe in innocent until proven guilty either. According to other reports the parents went back to Russia because the mother was an accused thief either by fraud or embezzlement, so she's definitely not coming here-I wouldn't bet there are warrants for her, or will be if she ever tries to come here. I really wish the Aunt in Canada would shut up too, I'm sick of hearing her garbage.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  19. #519
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    I must say I am sick of the vigilante attitude of some folks on FB.

    Such as this:
    If the terrorist came to my home they would have been hauling his dead a$$ out of my living room.

    Some are screaming Police State because the swat teams went through neighborhood homes.

    Comments like this one make me roll my eyes:
    We do not live in a police state as of yet...I do not need armed government thugs to "protect" me.....

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


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  20. #520
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    ^ Did you hear about the politician who made some sarcastic remark the other day about the people of Boston wishing they had guns in their homes that night? Talk about a person who should retire from politics immediately.


    3 members found this post helpful.

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