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  1. #61
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    Your post strikes me as very aggressive. How does not wanting to take an oath translate to don't like your country? Am I misreading this?

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  2. #62
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    "Very aggressive" because I was addressing the comment about people NOT wanting to become citizens because it requires an oath? What the fruitbat? (You're not a victim out here. You started a discussion. This is a discussion.)

    The point was, that if this is a part of what you have to do to become a citizen of ANY country, and you feel that you cannot take an oath to defend that country, then that is a CHOICE you make. You decide not to become one. End of story. No whining about not being one anymore--and missing out on the benefits of being one. If that's "aggressive" to you...I think you need to take a hard look at the definition of the term, let alone the word "very."

    It was a plain statement of fact. It's a choice. Plain and simple. No anger or attacking going on. (Just so you know, that should be accompanied by my shoulders shrugging.)
    "Relinquish your whip!!"


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    "Very aggressive" because I was addressing the comment about people NOT wanting to become citizens because it requires an oath? What the fruitbat?

    The point was, that if this is a part of what you have to do to become a citizen of ANY country, and you feel that you cannot, then that is a CHOICE you make. You decide not to become one. End of story. No whining about not being one anymore. If that's aggressive to you...I think you need to really take a hard look at the definition of the term, let alone the word "very."

    It was a plain statement of fact. It's a choice. Plain and simple. No anger or attacking going on.
    Of course people can choose not to become citizens.

    This does not mean they have to agree that every decision USDF makes (with their membership money, btw) about how they are treated based on their citizenship or lack-thereof is fair.

    Please to be understanding the thread.


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  4. #64
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    Well there are alot of reasons people don't want to take the oath. Mine are because I'm a Quaker and we don't take oaths, and we're pacifists so I'm certainly not going to swear to bear arms for anyone's sake. But I am sure there are many reasons why people don't want to take the oath -reasons I may not even think of but will be happy to give people the benefit of the doubt. I certainly would not assume they don't like America.

    I do think it's a valid concern when posters point out that all along we are able to support dressage in the US with our money and our time and then you hit this bit (if you're that cool that you're even in the running).

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  5. #65
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    I guess we have to agree to disagree. I totally understand not taking an oath for personal issues. I get that. There are ones I wouldn't want to take. In that case, I live with the consequences of not taking it. I keep my conscience, but lose something else, but that's a personal decision and one I respect.

    As for the awards, I think they are just aligning themselves with all the other countries. Like I said, I think people should ask someone like Steffen, who obviously has won just about everything, was not a citizen, and now it one. Before he could win every title we had and never be on the Olympic team representing us. He had to win things here to qualify to go back to Germany and then compete over there in their finals for team selection. It was something he lived with. It would be very interesting to see how he views this subject.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"


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  6. #66
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    I think that a lot of people do not realize how hard it is to become a citizen, and how much time and money it takes. Its not a matter of just taking an oath.

    I have been in the US 8 years, and am jyst now about to get a 10yr greencard. USCIS is not that easy to deal with...


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  7. #67
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    I am a Permanent Resident.

    Have been for over 50 years.

    (Velvet, I DO like the US. There are a number of reasons, some purely rational, some more emotional/psychological, why I choose not to become a citizen)

    It does not bother me at all that I can't win a "national championship" in an FEI discipline. We all get a good laugh at my sister(also a Permanent Resident) winning "Over the Walls", while the second place rider (highest placed US citizen) got the big trophy.

    She was doing well enough that she would have been on the US training list (or whatever it is called) if she were a US citizen. That was slightly more disappointing. (But on the other hand,, she didn't have to worry about whether or not she was p!$$!ng off Mark Philips.)

    The more frustrating thing (espeically for me, as I was not anywhere near FEI levels) was the FEI rule that, in order to compete in lower level USEF jumpers, dressage or eventing, I HAD to also be a member of my "home" National Federation. Luckily that has changed, and it is now EITHER USEF OR my "home" NF, not both.

    But a "National" Championship restricted to citizens? That does not bother me at all.
    Last edited by Janet; Apr. 24, 2013 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Mark Philips
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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  8. #68
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    Velvet,

    I think that's a fair assessment. I definitely accept the consequences of not being a citizen as long as I have to take an oath to bear arms. I suppose my only concern is that you ought not assume that people who do not become citizens have some issue with being American (don't like America). How's that?

    Janet and Libera, I absolutely agree with you that there are alot of reasons why a person stays a Permanent Resident that have nothing to do with the oath. Like I said; I give people the benefit of the doubt.


    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    But a "National" Championship restricted to citizens? That does not bother me at all.
    I misunderstood that. I thought you were bothered by that part.

    The disappointment in not being on a long list for the team here is because the teams are national representatives and thus citizens, as with all other countries. You don't pay to develop people for other countries when we'll later be competing against them at, say, the Olympics. So that makes complete sense to me.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    God forbid one do a half pass without absolving [sic] foreign sovereign under oath.
    You have no idea what is to be nationalized, do you? We are not talking about a dressage show. We are talking about representative of US.

    And just so you know, I Know EXACTLY what it takes to become an US citizen.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Velvet,

    I think that's a fair assessment. I definitely accept the consequences of not being a citizen as long as I have to take an oath to bear arms. I suppose my only concern is that you ought not assume that people who do not become citizens have some issue with being American (don't like America). How's that?

    Janet and Libera, I absolutely agree with you that there are alot of reasons why a person stays a Permanent Resident that have nothing to do with the oath. Like I said; I give people the benefit of the doubt.


    Paula
    I never said that they did not like America. My feeling is that they do not like it ENOUGH to become a citizen.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    You have no idea what is to be nationalized, do you? We are not talking about a dressage show. We are talking about representative of US.

    And just so you know, I Know EXACTLY what it takes to become an US citizen.
    Yes, I the child of immigrant parents, with a brother married to a permanent resident wife, who has seen people I care about get deported, have absolutely no idea.

    And of course we are talking about a dressage show. Re-read the thread title.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libera View Post
    I think that a lot of people do not realize how hard it is to become a citizen, and how much time and money it takes. Its not a matter of just taking an oath.

    I have been in the US 8 years, and am jyst now about to get a 10yr greencard. USCIS is not that easy to deal with...
    Yes. I know EXACTLY how hard it is to become a US citizen. I know how difficult to work with immigration office. It is more painful and frustrating than child birthing. But it is not impossible. And it does not take a lot of money either. You don't even need an immigration lawyer. You just need to be able to read and fill out a form.

    Many people choose not to be nationalized. Ask those people, they will tell you why they don't want to, and it is not because of time or money. It is because they want to be their native country's citizens. People who want to be US citizens will become ones.


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post

    I do think it's a valid concern when posters point out that all along we are able to support dressage in the US with our money and our time and then you hit this bit (if you're that cool that you're even in the running).
    Are you a member/supporter of USDF or USEF? Or is that part academic,too?

    I do know two trainers -- long-time permanent residents -- who are affected by this rule. They're OK with it because it's their decision to retain citizenship in the countries of their birth.

    It's like making the decision to ride in an english saddle and then complaining because you aren't allowed to ride in western trail classes. You follow the rules, or you don't participate.
    __________________________
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    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    You don't pay to develop people for other countries when we'll later be competing against them at, say, the Olympics. So that makes complete sense to me.
    Of course it makes complete sense. But that doesn't stop it being disappointing.

    Snce there was no way she would be selected for our "home" country's team, and even if she were added to that country's "training list", it is on the other side of the Atlantic.

    On the other hand, some people who live here, from countries without a strong home-based team (Bahamas, Thailand, etc.) benefit from the situation, being on their "home" team when they would not make the US team.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Yes, I the child of immigrant parents, with a brother married to a permanent resident wife, who has seen people I care about get deported, have absolutely no idea.

    And of course we are talking about a dressage show. Re-read the thread title.
    That is exactly I am saying: you have no idea. You only think you do. Your parents went through the process; you did not. They swore under oath to absolve foreign sovereign. You did not. You have no idea how difficult it can be for many.



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    That is exactly I am saying: you have no idea. You only think you do. Your parents went through the process; you did not. They swore under oath to absolve foreign sovereign. You did not.
    No they did not, oh wise one.
    They swore to ABJURE. You cannot "absolve" a foreign sovereign.
    Please continue being the expert.


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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Well there are alot of reasons people don't want to take the oath. Mine are because I'm a Quaker and we don't take oaths, and we're pacifists so I'm certainly not going to swear to bear arms for anyone's sake. But I am sure there are many reasons why people don't want to take the oath -reasons I may not even think of but will be happy to give people the benefit of the doubt. I certainly would not assume they don't like America.

    I do think it's a valid concern when posters point out that all along we are able to support dressage in the US with our money and our time and then you hit this bit (if you're that cool that you're even in the running).

    Paula
    Paula, not want to take the oath does not mean they don't like US. They do, or they won't be here. It just means they want to remain their allegiance with their native countries, and as such, cannot represent US. They can represent their own countries though.



  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    No they did not, oh wise one.
    They swore to ABJURE. You cannot "absolve" an oath.
    Please continue being the expert.
    Well sorry for the gramma errors. I agree you are expert in English, or at least when comparing to me. I am awed. And yes, I am definitely more qualified than you are in this matter about nationalization and what it takes, since I went through the process.



  20. #80
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    Velvet, I took this, "Don't like our country? Don't become a citizen." to mean that you were of the impression that people who don't become citizens don't like America. Then you say, "My feeling is that they do not like it ENOUGH to become a citizen." which makes me think that you are making that judgement. To which I say, the judgement is hasty and not correct.

    MP, I think I am? I find the whole bureaucracy confusing. I belong to the PVDA -my GMO -does that make me also a member of USDF? If so yes I am. If not, I guess I need to sort that out before I debut Fella .

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



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