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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2009
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    550

    Default need advice. Tb mare, breed or not

    I have a 8 year old maiden TB mare, angels treasure. She was reasonably well bred and has great conformation but never raced well because of an injury. When she did race she was labeled a bleeder and given to me. My vet thinks the bleeding issue is because of the over stress created by trying to race even with the miniscus of the stifle completely torn. Now that we know it's the miniscus and not the ligament of the stifle, she cannot and should not be ridden.

    I have put her up on the board for free as a broodmare prospect but I'm toying with the idea of breeding her if that would allow her to find a good job in life. She's really a nice mare with amazing heart if she was running and jumping with the damage she has. The stallion I would breed to is Marsh side. Would this make her any more desirable? Would it prove her as a broodmare and give her the possibility of a job in life?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 25, 2001
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    2,545

    Default

    I would not breed her unless you want to keep the baby, train it, show/race it, and make sure it's awesome, then maybe breed her again.

    Seriously, it's not going to improve her worth to anyone, and there are enough foals/horses out there that need homes, and there are way too many broodmares that should never have been bred.

    The only type of mare that should be bred without having proved herself on the track or under saddle is one with IMPECCABLE breeding and a very good reason for not proving herself under saddle.
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Minnesota
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    18,898

    Default

    What's your goal with the foal? Are you going to raise it and run it? Are you going to try to sell it at auction? Or are you just asking if breeding this mare to a race stallion increases her desirability or value?

    She's got very little value as a producer of race horses. She's the best thing her dam produced, and her granddam also produced nothing of note. Even her great granddam was unimpressive, although she did produce a pretty hard knocking mare named Full Treasure who ran 64 times.

    IOW, there's nothing there that suggests your mare would produce a runner. Bleeding is also heritable.

    I'd also question breeding a mare with a blown stifle. How is the weight of the foal going to affect her pain levels?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2010
    Location
    Gum Tree PA
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    Default

    [QUOTE=Simkie;6940651]
    Bleeding is also heritable.

    QUOTE]

    There are no conclusive studies that I know of that suggest that EIPH, Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage, aka Bleeding is hereditary. Nor any of the leading reproductive Vets I work with and or have had conversations with have stated as such or suggest it might be. If you know of any references suggesting it is please provide the name. Even better a link to the studies, reported finding. As a breeder of Thoroughbred race horses I like to be as well informed as possible. At this time the idea that it hereditary is more intuitive then fact or even possible because it is not completely understood.



  5. #5
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gumtree View Post
    There are no conclusive studies that I know of that suggest that EIPH, Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage, aka Bleeding is hereditary. Nor any of the leading reproductive Vets I work with and or have had conversations with have stated as such or suggest it might be. If you know of any references suggesting it is please provide the name. Even better a link to the studies, reported finding. As a breeder of Thoroughbred race horses I like to be as well informed as possible. At this time the idea that it hereditary is more intuitive then fact or even possible because it is not completely understood.
    How about this right here?

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...nherited-trait

    And here's the study:

    http://www.sasas.co.za/sites/sasas.c...ol34iss4_0.pdf



  6. #6
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    Jul. 19, 2010
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    Gum Tree PA
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    Default

    No disrespect but your mare is not even reasonably well bred. She is by an unraced son of Storm Cat out of a mare by an unraced son of Seattle Slew. Neither of which I have ever heard of and I do this for a living. I breed for the KY market and mid-Atlantic markets along with racing home breds. I get paid for planning matings and as agent to purchase for clients at auction. The stallion you are looking at stands at a friend of mine’s farm in NY. He won a lot of money mostly I believe in restricted Canadian stakes. He is a nicely bred horse but son’s of Gone West have only been marginal at best as stallions. And the fact that he was a 12 furlong horse is why he stands for only $3,000 and I doubt they are getting that. 12 furlong stallions are a very hard sell. I would guess you are being swayed this way because of the lucrative NY breeding program. IMO with this mating you would be very hard pressed to find a buyer. Maybe privately as a 2 year old in training if it really looked the part. But I doubt you would get your expenses back. I have been offered far better bred horses for free. Just so you know horse’s with “famous” names in their bloodlines does not make them well bred. It is all in the mare’s produce and family even if she was a stakes winner. Please don’t take all of this the wrong way I am trying to save you money and work. And not be stuck with a horse no one will want.
    And I get well paid for my consulting.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    Sorry, you will have to do better.
    Yes, “Estimated breeding values for epistaxis should be used as a tool for selecting against it and be considered in breeding programs to decrease the incidence thereof,” the study concluded.”
    It would take many, many, many generations of breeding to prove out this theory.
    The South African study is very controversial and I don’t have the time nor inclination to go into why. There is plenty discussion and debate to be dug up over this study that has been going on for years now, 9 to be exact. By and large it has been dismissed as a true scientific approach. Interesting and of some value. Not my words. Unfortunately this is the only half decent study that has been preformed to date. EIPH and the treatment with Lasix is extremely controversial. As we speak the industry is addressing this. The fact is there is NO direct collation only speculation as to if it is a congenital condition. It is also a fact that American based racehorses have far higher incidents of EIPH then racehorses in other parts of the world which strongly suggests there is something else going on in this country. Training practices, raising of, environmental, etc. Given the fact that 1000s of American bloodlines have been exported over the years why aren’t those families showing high incidents of EIPH? I am not taking a position on this one way or another at this time. I can say, but without merit because it is not “scientific”, having spent a life time of breeding and working with racehorses that I have not found it to be congenital. To suggest that it is, IMO is doing a disservice at this time.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2009
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    Default

    thank you to all of you who took the time to answer. It helps very much in the decision making process.
    Thanks again.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 7, 2001
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    Usually too far from the barn
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    Default

    There is simply nothing in this mare's pedigree that makes me think that she would produce a reasonably good racehorse. Yes, she has famous names in her pedigree (pretty much all TB's do) but that doesn't make her "well bred."


    For most people in racing and/or breeding, "well bred" refers to horses that are sired by or out of top sires or top producers (or siblings thereof) and not necessarily offspring of top horses, who are not always leaders within the stud.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
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    11,354

    Default

    There's nothing in the mare's pedigree that is in need of being passed on, and even if I decided she was worth breeding anyway that cross does nothing for me. IF you were prepared to keep the baby as a homebred even if he flopped on the track, and you strictly wanted to do this to have the experience of breeding, owning, and racing (if he made it that far), okay, your mare, but the foal wouldn't sell for much/anything and it wouldn't add any value to the mare unless the foal turned out to be something spectacular (remotely possible, but highly improbable.) Unless you have the tons of money to bring the foal along yourself, and are ready to deal if he/she is a dud on the track (and by that I mean have an alternative plan) there's no reason to breed.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2006
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    1,922

    Default

    Since everyone seems to be in total agreement here...

    Have you looked at her joining an embryo transfer herd at all? I am not very knowledgeable on that aspect of the industry but perhaps she could find a home there?



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2000
    Location
    Kentucky
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    7,925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gumtree View Post
    No disrespect but your mare is not even reasonably well bred. She is by an unraced son of Storm Cat out of a mare by an unraced son of Seattle Slew. Neither of which I have ever heard of and I do this for a living. I breed for the KY market and mid-Atlantic markets along with racing home breds. I get paid for planning matings and as agent to purchase for clients at auction. The stallion you are looking at stands at a friend of mine’s farm in NY. He won a lot of money mostly I believe in restricted Canadian stakes. He is a nicely bred horse but son’s of Gone West have only been marginal at best as stallions. And the fact that he was a 12 furlong horse is why he stands for only $3,000 and I doubt they are getting that. 12 furlong stallions are a very hard sell. I would guess you are being swayed this way because of the lucrative NY breeding program. IMO with this mating you would be very hard pressed to find a buyer. Maybe privately as a 2 year old in training if it really looked the part. But I doubt you would get your expenses back. I have been offered far better bred horses for free. Just so you know horse’s with “famous” names in their bloodlines does not make them well bred. It is all in the mare’s produce and family even if she was a stakes winner. Please don’t take all of this the wrong way I am trying to save you money and work. And not be stuck with a horse no one will want.
    And I get well paid for my consulting.
    Considering that you get well paid for your consulting I'm surprised you haven't heard of such stellar, Gone West sired, stallions as Speightstown, Elusive Quality, Grand Slam and Proud Citizen.

    Clearly you have a desire to denigrate your friend's stallion but that's not the basis on which to do it.
    Last edited by LaurieB; Apr. 16, 2013 at 04:58 PM.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by magicteetango View Post
    Since everyone seems to be in total agreement here...

    Have you looked at her joining an embryo transfer herd at all? I am not very knowledgeable on that aspect of the industry but perhaps she could find a home there?
    Sport Horse forum would be the place to ask, it's not legal for JC Thoroughbreds.



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