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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlosmine View Post
    PROFIT? what Profit?
    That being said, for two weeks or more, I discounted board for cost of feed and shavings. Not labor or utilities.
    You run a business and don't make a profit?? I have difficulties believing that, how does a business continue to operate with no profit?


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Bolding by me.

    The BO can not very well tell the hay guy to cut a month later because they managed to save 100 bales because one boarder decided to take Dobbin some where else for a few months.

    I get the point you are trying to make but your examples are not helping you make the point well.

    Offering a discount is a very nice gesture if a barn owner can do it.
    I didn't realize that hay guys CUT the hay based on when individual BOs wanted the hay delivered. Maybe this is a regional difference. Where I am located, the hay is cut and then stored. When you want hay, you order it by the bale and it is delivered/picked up from where it is stored. If you want 100 bales you get 100. If you want 1000 you get 1000. When you want it, not when the farmer wants to cut it. The grain and shavings are the same. When you run out, you order more and it's delivered. If you don't go through it as quickly as you anticipated, you push back when you order or order less next time. None of it is being PRODUCED based on the ordering. It's all being produced and stored and then it is delivered and paid for when ordered. I have never seen a setup in my area where a BO is obligated to take the hay immediately when it's baled, in the amount that the farmer has, whether she needs/wants it/has space for it or not.

    I'll give you a concrete example from when I did stalls. The barn had 20 horses. Let's just say for the sake of easy math that each horse ate a bag of grain per month, ate 15 bales of hay per month, and used 15 wheelbarrows of shavings per month (underestimates but just to make the math easy).

    When 4 horses went to Aiken for 2 months, things changes considerably. All of a sudden, chores took an hour less (and I was paid for an hour less work. Though I will agree with those who say that payment arrangement wasn't ideal and I will also agree with those who say it's worth keeping payment consistent to keep good help). At $10/hour, a savings of an hour a day added up to $280 less pay each month, a total of $560.

    We didn't need to order as much grain. After the first month, we had 4 extra bags. So we reduced the next month by 4 bags and the month after that too. Which meant the grain bill was cheaper. We ordered 8 fewer bags of grain while the horses were gone.

    We went through less hay and shavings. Whereas normally we had to call the shavings guy for a load by the end of the month, in the first month they were away-- the end of the month came and we still had some left. So we were able to wait another week or two to re-order shavings. By the end of the second month, we had a lot left. It allowed us to "skip" a month in ordering shavings.

    We went through less hay. At the end of the winter, we still had 120 bales left. Normally we'd be out. So when we placed the spring order, we ordered 120 fewer bales than normal. That saved money on the hay bill.

    Obviously the costs are incremental. One horse gone for one month saves less than 10 horses gone for 10 months. But the reality is that things like shavings/grain/hay are used in increments and they are not used when the stall is "dry." Things like insurance/mortgage on the property, maintenance of the rings, etc. are spent regardless of whether a few horses leave or not. Not every BO gives a discount when horses are gone for extended periods. It's their perogative, and your decision as a boarder whether you agree to that contractual term or not. But the reality is that there ARE incremental expenses that are ONLY expended when a live horse is being boarded and there are a lot of reasons why it's more fair to deduct those costs, since the BO is not actually incurring them anymore, during a period of excused extended absence when the stall is just being "held." It's not like the BO says "oh well, Dobbin is gone, I guess I'll still order grain for him and throw it in the trash." Setting aside the issue of whether there SHOULD be a discount or not, it's a reality that it does cost the BO less when there are fewer horses on the property when we're talking about feed/bedding (and typically labor).
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenyatta View Post
    You run a business and don't make a profit?? I have difficulties believing that, how does a business continue to operate with no profit?
    I'll wager a guess that there's profit on training/showing/sales but not much profit on strictly the board. Which is not uncommon.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  4. #44
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I didn't realize that hay guys CUT the hay based on when individual BOs wanted the hay delivered.
    Sigh.
    No, but lots of bigger barns (around here) buy out of the field. The wagons are delivered and unloaded right into the barn. It is cheaper.
    If the hay guy has to unload into his barn and then reload to deliver the price goes up quite a bit.

    But then I suppose the barn owner can pay a worker to move the extra left over hay out of the way so it can get stacked at the front. Oh wait, that is costing the BO extra when you insist the BO is totally saving along the way.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Sigh.
    No, but lots of bigger barns (around here) buy out of the field. The wagons are delivered and unloaded right into the barn. It is cheaper.
    If the hay guy has to unload into his barn and then reload to deliver the price goes up quite a bit.

    But then I suppose the barn owner can pay a worker to move the extra left over hay out of the way so it can get stacked at the front. Oh wait, that is costing the BO extra when you insist the BO is totally saving along the way.
    Then it's a regional difference. No place I've ever boarded in the mid-Atlantic, RI, or Atlanta area bought out of the field. I actually briefly investigated growing hay myself (didn't end up buying that property) and spoke with the hay farmer who would have done the work-- and he did not mention that sort of arrangement. Maybe it's a regional thing?

    Can't you still buy only as much as you want? Can't you buy 100 bales less because you still have 100 in the loft? And maybe the time the stall cleaners don't spend every day cleaning stalls for horses who aren't there can be spent moving the hay in the loft? So the labor is actually zero sum?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Then it's a regional difference. No place I've ever boarded in the mid-Atlantic, RI, or Atlanta area bought out of the field. I actually briefly investigated growing hay myself (didn't end up buying that property) and spoke with the hay farmer who would have done the work-- and he did not mention that sort of arrangement. Maybe it's a regional thing?

    Can't you still buy only as much as you want? Can't you buy 100 bales less because you still have 100 in the loft? And maybe the time the stall cleaners don't spend every day cleaning stalls for horses who aren't there can be spent moving the hay in the loft? So the labor is actually zero sum?
    I'm from your area. Just moved to the MidWest. In both places, I have had farmers who will cut and bale, and send it to me right off the wagon. It's not regional.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    I'm from your area. Just moved to the MidWest. In both places, I have had farmers who will cut and bale, and send it to me right off the wagon. It's not regional.
    And you're unable to tell them how much you want?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    And you're unable to tell them how much you want?
    What is your problem? I know how much I need. "I" am not the issue. You said buying hay off a wagon must be regional. I merely pointed out that, having the experience in the Mid West and East Coast, you are wrong.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    What is your problem? I know how much I need. "I" am not the issue. You said buying hay off a wagon must be regional. I merely pointed out that, having the experience in the Mid West and East Coast, you are wrong.


    What's your problem? I asked a simple question. In the arrangement you're describing, are you obligated to buy all the hay that's produced or do you get to dictate how much you want? I am trying to understand this buying from the field thing?! If I end up buying a farm assessed property and growing hay, I'd like to know if it's a common arrangement that I can find a buyer who will take whenever I produce, no matter when I produce it and no matter the amount.

    And it's relevant to what we're discussing, specifically whether when horses are gone there are consumable products that the BO can buy less of. If the BO keeps getting more hay than she needs, at some point she's going to have to cry uncle unless she's got unlimited storage. I just don't agree with the argument that it doesn't cost the BO less in certain consumable products when the horse isn't there. You seem to be arguing that because the BO buys the hay out of the field, she doesn't actually buy less-- but I find the arrangement odd if the BO can't have some control over how much she buys. If a horse is gone for several months and she doesn't use up that horse's allocation of hay, I would think logically she could buy a little less hay next time. You seem adamant that's not the case. I am trying to understand why.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    What's your problem? I asked a simple question. In the arrangement you're describing, are you obligated to buy all the hay that's produced or do you get to dictate how much you want? I am trying to understand this buying from the field thing?! If I end up buying a farm assessed property and growing hay, I'd like to know if it's a common arrangement that I can find a buyer who will take whenever I produce, no matter when I produce it and no matter the amount.

    And it's relevant to what we're discussing, specifically whether when horses are gone there are consumable products that the BO can buy less of. If the BO keeps getting more hay than she needs, at some point she's going to have to cry uncle unless she's got unlimited storage. I just don't agree with the argument that it doesn't cost the BO less in certain consumable products when the horse isn't there. You seem to be arguing that because the BO buys the hay out of the field, she doesn't actually buy less-- but I find the arrangement odd if the BO can't have some control over how much she buys. If a horse is gone for several months and she doesn't use up that horse's allocation of hay, I would think logically she could buy a little less hay next time. You seem adamant that's not the case. I am trying to understand why.
    I'm not adamant about anything. Read for comprehension. I corrected a comment you made that was wrong. Plain wrong re: buying hay off a wagon being regional. Carry on and bless your heart.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    I'm not adamant about anything. Read for comprehension. I corrected a comment you made that was wrong. Plain wrong re: buying hay off a wagon being regional. Carry on and bless your heart.
    Then it seems we agree about hay being a consumable good that fluctuated based on the number of horses. Good to know about buying "off the wagon." I've never heard of that being done here but if I do grow hay that would be better than selling it to the hay dealer-- so maybe someone near me will want to buy it that way. It's still not clear to me that it's an outputs contract (buyer must buy all produced) or not. I am assuming not.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Then it seems we agree about hay being a consumable good that fluctuated based on the number of horses. Good to know about buying "off the wagon." I've never heard of that being done here but if I do grow hay that would be better than selling it to the hay dealer-- so maybe someone near me will want to buy it that way. It's still not clear to me that it's an outputs contract (buyer must buy all produced) or not. I am assuming not.
    The farmers I have dealt with or seen let you buy as much or little as you want. One gave a discount to someone who bought the whole wagon in one shot, straight out if the field. He didn't have to store it and had cash. One farmer sold bales for $3 if you came and took it off the wagon yourself, or my self care boarder from Pa said that. If you have the capability to grow hay at your plnew place, that's awesome.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    The farmers I have dealt with or seen let you buy as much or little as you want. One gave a discount to someone who bought the whole wagon in one shot, straight out if the field. He didn't have to store it and had cash. One farmer sold bales for $3 if you came and took it off the wagon yourself, or my self care boarder from Pa said that. If you have the capability to grow hay at your plnew place, that's awesome.
    This is helpful. Selling from the field was honestly not an option I had considered. For the NJ farm assessment I need some sort of profit and some places did have enough land to grow hay but typically not sufficient storage to keep it all. And I doubt the hay auction guy would pay what a barn owner would pay. So this is good food for thought that I had not considered.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    This is helpful. Selling from the field was honestly not an option I had considered. For the NJ farm assessment I need some sort of profit and some places did have enough land to grow hay but typically not sufficient storage to keep it all. And I doubt the hay auction guy would pay what a barn owner would pay. So this is good food for thought that I had not considered.
    The one guy who had people buy it and load it himself advertised at the local feed store and on a local schooling show/club website. Or if you tap into some smaller barns or self care people. I remember my self care woman took her horse trailer and filled it sky high with the bales. Ok- a farm in NJ with enough land to grow hay? Officially jealous When I was relocating I was looking in Hunterdon County (wow, nice but $$$) Can't wait to get back East.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  15. #55
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    I've had tp pull horses out of boarding situations for over 10 years to head south for the winter. In my experience, if you want your stall back, you pay. If you don't, you don't and you take the chance the stall isn't there when you get back. Sometimes you get lucky and the barn owner will offer a prorated rate.

    I think Many here are looking at it wrong. People keep saying, the barn owners cost goes down, so they should offer that break to me. First, their labor is often their largest cost, and they have to pay the same if there are 10 horses in the facility or 11. Most often they can't let one person go just because you decide to move. Unless you have hourly employees only, that flexibility probably doesnt exist. Second, you are assuming that the barn owner can't recoup with a new boarder who will pay full freight. Why should they forego income if they can bring in a new boarder?

    You are often leaving for your convenience, not the barns. Again, sometimes you get lucky, but it is reasonable to expect to pay full freight while you are gone. If you don't want to, take your chances and have a new barn picked out for backup when you return.


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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Can't you still buy only as much as you want? Can't you buy 100 bales less because you still have 100 in the loft? And maybe the time the stall cleaners don't spend every day cleaning stalls for horses who aren't there can be spent moving the hay in the loft? So the labor is actually zero sum?
    Depends.

    Sometimes you commit in advance to buy x00bales (or tons) over the year, so if there is a shortage you get priority treatment. But if you you end up not needing all of it you are stuck with it.

    Sometimes you just get what you need each time. But then you run the risk that, near the end of the season, the farmer will say "sorry, I don't have any that isn't already committed".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    The one guy who had people buy it and load it himself advertised at the local feed store and on a local schooling show/club website. Or if you tap into some smaller barns or self care people. I remember my self care woman took her horse trailer and filled it sky high with the bales. Ok- a farm in NJ with enough land to grow hay? Officially jealous When I was relocating I was looking in Hunterdon County (wow, nice but $$$) Can't wait to get back East.
    Oh, I am looking WAY SOUTH of there but hope to get my own little square of grass for the ponies soon
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  18. #58
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    I have not read all the posts. I would expect that in a boarding situation, if I go off for a week or so to go horse camping, I would pay full board and I expect to take my horses hay ration with me! If a barn would not allow that, I would not board there.



  19. #59
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    I run our barn as a co-op where each boarder provides an equal amount of labor over the course of a month to take care of all 11 horses. I provide, and am reimbursed for, the direct costs associated with keeping horses. We set up a general budget for these items and it's reviewed and tweaked once a year.
    On the list of costs: hay (budgeted at say one bale per horse per day), shavings (max 3 per week per stall), standard grain (up to X lbs per day), standard supplements (BOSS, Red 7), deworming, water, electricity, propane for heating tack room, manure removal, fuel for manure truck and ring drag tractor, excess liability insurance for the pleasure of the boarders' company, replacement of 3 fence rails per horse per year and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. We put in nothing for property taxes, for field mowing/ upkeep, or our own labor.

    I do everything I can to keep prices down. I buy a year's worth of hay straight from the field so I need to establish the budgeted number of bales. Then usage has to be managed to the budget as additional bales in the middle of winter will be at least 50% more expensive. Ditto shavings. To get the best price, I buy a year's worth at one time. I go to the grain store monthly and haul it myself to save money. So I'm fronting these expenses, then getting "reimbursed" monthly. And despite my efforts, I can't get the monthly price to be less than $355, and it may go higher this year as price escalations kick in.

    Whenever a boarder has gone south for the winter or had an extended leave, I charge nothing for the empty stall. I require that they arrange to cover their work shifts, as otherwise it would be unfair to everyone else. And if one person uses less hay one month or whatever, I can't and don't discount the board. If I were to do this, I'd have to act like a hall monitor, watching everything on a daily basis and constantly recalculating. Not how I want to live, thank you very much. They are expected to chip in more if they exceed the budget.

    And FWIW, I have a lengthy waiting list, so I guess the arrangement is working!
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  20. #60
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    I'm not paying anything (gone for 90 days training), but I also have given up my stall. For a very long-term absence, if I wanted to return, I would try to work with the BO to get a discount for the feed I'm not using, but I had one of 6 stalls in the more expensive barn (insulated) so I would understand her wanting $. Speaking of utilities, her heating bill would go up, not down without that body in there.

    I'm not willing to pay full board when I'm gone for 90 days, but I also recognize she doesn't have to hold my stall for me. She actually offered to hold a stall, but I think she *really* likes my horse (sweetie, clean in her stall, and I pay on time and don't give her grief).

    For an absence up to a month, I would expect to pay board and be pleasantly suprised if I got a break.

    For random trips = full board, but I take barn hay.

    I never got a break on board when I was showing, but we brought barn hay and grain. I guess I did buy my own bedding.

    We buy hay at once for the year so we know we have it.
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

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