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  1. #21
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    Coumandin IS rat poison. So no bute needed. I don't know if it is the same ingredient that was found in the two horses though.
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  2. #22
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    Coumadin is a blood thinner. One suspects that all of these horses were on Salix, but perhaps only for races. Track vets have to approve the use of Salix, but it's to make bleeding harder. IMy vague memory is that Salix works by reducing pressure. Perhaps (just speculating) there is a connection between using Coumadin (or one of the other rat poisons that prevents clotting) and Salix/Lasix. Why would you feed a clot preventer with Salix? What would that do and what would you want the combination to do.

    What were they giving the New Mexico horses?
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  3. #23
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    Without necropsies, there is no way to even begin to draw conclusions or make connections. Heck, even WITH necropsies it's often really difficult to find a "smoking gun" and the when horses collapse and die suddenly it can be any one of at least 6-10 different things, even if I just think back to the last several deaths of event horses.

    Certainly all bases should be covered and no stone left unturned, but as simple as it may seem to draw obvious conclusions, the facts are (usually) more complicated.

    In the case of the polo ponies that all died after being injected with a badly compounded drug/vitamin it was pretty obvious. Certainly an excess number of horses in "one barn" should bring some scrutiny. But (forgive me, haven't looked at details) if 7 horses in one trainer's "barn" is 7 out of 500 and the other 4 were scattered among barns of 10-15, that is not a statistical anomaly other than the fact that one trainer might have a lot of horses.
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  4. #24
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    All horses who die on the grounds of the track in CA are necropsied.


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  5. #25
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    Default Odd

    What is odd is that all these horses where stabled at Hollywood, the off string, if you can call it that
    Forward is good



  6. #26
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    I'm not sure I have the numbers right, but the number of cardio/inexplicable deaths has tripled from 2010, and 2013 looks to be an huge increase so far.

    From the Paulick Report:
    According to a CHRB report, there were 16 sudden deaths of otherwise healthy horses in the 2011-12 fiscal year. Most of them were attributed to cardiac arrest or related cardiopulmonary failure.

    That’s four times the number of sudden deaths that were reported two years earlier, in 2009-10, when four occurred, and up from the six sudden deaths reported by the CHRB in 2010-11. For the first six months of the 2012-13 fiscal year that ends June 30, 10 sudden deaths have been confirmed through the state’s necropsy program, putting this year at a pace even higher than in 2011-12.
    Something is rotten in the State of California.
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  7. #27
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    Makes you wonder about mag sulfate or EPO.


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  8. #28
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    The story made the NY Times. Poor horses.

    http://nyti.ms/10UJM8P



  9. #29
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    According to the Times, the horses with rat poisoning died from internal hemorrhage, which makes sense. They did necropsies on all the horses, but still don't know what's going on.
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I'm not sure I have the numbers right, but the number of cardio/inexplicable deaths has tripled from 2010, and 2013 looks to be an huge increase so far.

    From the Paulick Report:


    Something is rotten in the State of California.
    Somebody posted in the comments about a (I think) Japanese study that looked at sudden deaths in several different countries. California accounted for 20% of the overall sudden deaths worldwide.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Makes you wonder about mag sulfate or EPO.
    Edgar Allen Poe


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    The story made the NY Times. Poor horses.

    http://nyti.ms/10UJM8P
    Did anyone for even a fleeting moment think that Joe Drape wouldn't be all over this?


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drvmb1ggl3 View Post
    Edgar Allen Poe
    ?



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Makes you wonder about mag sulfate or EPO.
    Now you could be on to something. I know a lot of guys that like to take the edge off the more rank ones, especially if they need to get gate OKed that day.


    But... Wouldn't one drop in the barn after the mag? Forgive my ignorance, I've never killed a horse.

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Makes you wonder about mag sulfate or EPO.
    I'm pretty sure that the CHRB tests for EPO.
    *CrowneDragon*
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  16. #36
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by CrowneDragon View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the CHRB tests for EPO.
    They do, but it's notoriously tricky to test for, as anyone who has followed the cycling sagas will have seen. You can't test for EPO itself, only the residual antibodies and to do it properly you need a blood passport from the athlete. There are also synthetic version which even harder.

    the use of anti coagulants or blood thinners could be used to offset the harmful blood thickening effects of EPO.

    edgar Allen Poe is a euphemism for EPO.



  17. #37
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    They also commented that clenbuterol + dex is a very dangerous combination. Named some cocktails that were out there: Mexican Red Bull and Pickle Juice. And that dropping dead is not as rare in QH racing. The Japanese study found that 60% of the dropping dead deaths worldwide that were studied were from California tracks. One wonders if they investigated Louisiana, Texas and New Mexico tracks in the study.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    From the article:

    Cardiac failure in Thoroughbred racehorses is a relatively rare occurrence, according to trainers and racetrack veterinarians.

    7 out of 11 horses that died of cardiac failure were in this guy's stable. Coincidence? I think not.
    I never said it WAS a coincidence... quite the opposite, actually, which is why it would be a useful thing to study.



  19. #39
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    They can't really test effectively for EPO as stated above. They used to not be able to test for it at all but I think now they can test for pig antibodies or something to that effect. I know there is an injectible clenbuterol that they were having trouble testing for a few years ago. A certain mid-atlantic trainer who will remain nameless was infamous for using it. I have been out of the game for a couple of years so not sure if they caught up to that or not.

    As far as mag sulfate goes, it will drop them in the barn if you give too much too quickly but I wonder if they get an arrhythmia from less than too much that doesn't cause a problem until their heart tries to raise it's level during exercise.



  20. #40
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    1. Baffert's horses are responsible for 7 out of 16? -- I might have that wrong because an article said that his horses comprised 67% of fatalities (which would be 7 out of 12).

    2. The first 3 were all owned by the same owner -- Kaleem Shah.

    3. Only one has been specifically identified as being owned by Pegram. That accounts for 4 of the 7.

    4. To me, the strangest thing is that many of the horses died during the morning exercise. Why wouldn't more have occurred during racing which puts a bigger strain on the heart? It is suspicious because therre is less oversight in the morning -- and so easier to go unnoticed for a long time. EDITED TO ADD: 2 were identified as occurring while the horse was galloping, 1 was "working" and 2 were racing. The time/activity of the others has not been released.

    5. These deaths have occurred over the last 2 fiscal years (fiscal year being July 1 - June 30). Baffert's next to last death was in Dec. 2012, The last death was 2 weeks ago (which must be why this is being (finally) brought to everyone's attention now). And according to the Paulick Report the deaths happened at Hollywood and Santa Anita. The only ones whose actual place of death were listed as being at Hollywood Park, but evidently other deaths have occurred at Santa Anita.

    To me, the worst thing is that Baffert has gone into hiding on his issue. He should be out front, demanding answers for the loss of his horses.

    Someone over on Thoroughbred Champions said that this meant that Baffert will probably win the Ky Derby and will be asked about the deaths on Network TV in the winner's circle. -- Just what racing needs......
    Last edited by Lord Helpus; Apr. 11, 2013 at 01:55 PM.
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