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  1. #1
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    Default Mare lines with staying power

    I am hoping this forum can help point me in the right direction. I am interested in researching with the intent of selecting a registered TB mare for breeding, whose lines are very well proven over longer turf distances and/or steeplechase. Big, deep bodied, powerful, and I am interested in longer distance events over sprinters.

    My problem is that I don't know anything about turf racing or steeplechase, enough to figure out what sort of record is "good" and what distance determines a middle- or long-distance runner (over a sprinter.)

    Can you give an idea of which tracks in NA run those sorts of races, and maybe point at some leads to follow up? If you've owned or been involved with those type of horses, can you give me an idea of what you'd consider a "long" career? Or how many races would "prove" a horse to your satisfaction? Do you expect them to run 2 a year, or run races every few weeks for several years?

    Input much appreciated!
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  2. #2
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    Something with Saddler's Wells in it?
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  3. #3
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    Funny you should mention Sadler's Wells. I have a Sadler's Wells granddaughter (on her sire's side) with French lines on her dam's side. The incomparable Vineyridge mentioned to me that through her dam's side, my mare is related to Kauto Star, which is not too shabby!. I have to say that the blood shows. Although I haven't done that much with my mare, she moves better on the grass than the dirt ring.

    Somewhere there is a thread that talks about the DI and CD numbers above every horse's pedigree. I believe that the lower the numbers, the more the horse is bred for distance. (My mare has a negative CD.)

    There are many wonderful mares out there. Have fun hunting for yours! And read every one of Vineyridge's posts. She really knows her stuff. There are other COTHer's who are well versed also, but I'm blocking on names (Sorry!)
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  4. #4
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    Are you looking for racing or sport? If sport, I highly recommend anything in the Alexander Mare of 1790 family. She's 2-n, 2-o, 2-r, and 2-s. Somethingroyal was 2-s. Since the family number roughly correspond to mitochondrial haplotypes, what you'll get is the engines that fuel energy use by the cells.

    Another factor in stamina is the existence vel non of the C variant of the MSTN gene on Chromosome 16 (? 18?) The "traditional" stamina variant is the T version. So for a stayer, you would be wise to look for the "T" variant from both sire and dam, although it's kind of hard to suss out. Sadler's Wells was most probably a C/T; so the staying proclivities of his get would depend on whether they inherited either the C or the T from him and also which one they got from the dam. What the MSTN gene seems to control is the production of short twitch type muscle fibers through training.

    One of the most accomplished stayers of modern flat racing was Yeats.
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/yeats2

    There is a pretty standard recipe for chasers in the UK/Ire and France. Look for Mill Reef nicked with Habitat, for one. I had done a study of this a couple of years ago, but it's on a HD that crashed. I'm hoping to be able to clone the drive and recover the data in a few weeks.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Apr. 5, 2013 at 08:04 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Lots of meat for me to continue researching with Thanks all.

    Vineyridge, I am looking for a mare to use for an Endurance horse, crossed on an Arabian stallion. Looking down the road a ways though, I'm not in a rush, I wanted to spend some time learning about the racing disciplines that might help produce a really good Endurance horse. The one trait I really want to anchor in the TB mare is an efficiency of movement, a natural length of stride and way of going that covers ground without excessive strain. Natural athletes.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  6. #6
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    Arabians are famous for their type I muscle fibers. TBs for their Type II b, which can be converted into long twitch or short twitch through training. The T variant predisposes to staying and later maturing, while the C predisposes to short distance and precocity.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    I am hoping this forum can help point me in the right direction. I am interested in researching with the intent of selecting a registered TB mare for breeding, whose lines are very well proven over longer turf distances and/or steeplechase. Big, deep bodied, powerful, and I am interested in longer distance events over sprinters.

    My problem is that I don't know anything about turf racing or steeplechase, enough to figure out what sort of record is "good" and what distance determines a middle- or long-distance runner (over a sprinter.)

    Can you give an idea of which tracks in NA run those sorts of races, and maybe point at some leads to follow up? If you've owned or been involved with those type of horses, can you give me an idea of what you'd consider a "long" career? Or how many races would "prove" a horse to your satisfaction? Do you expect them to run 2 a year, or run races every few weeks for several years?

    Input much appreciated!
    Start reading http://thisishorseracing.com/news/ and look up the pedigrees of the steeplechase horses discussed in this online magazine.



  8. #8
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    Dynaformer is perhaps the most significant turf/distance influence in the US, and has some steeplechasers too (champion McDynamo, for one). It might be tough to get a good Dynaformer mare outside of the TB industry, though...they're pretty well-regarded.

    Other turf sires: Royal Academy, Diesis, Theatrical, El Prado (by Sadlers Wells, and sire of Kitten's Joy), Roberto (sire of Dynaformer). Roberto is fairly common in steeplechase/jumper pedigrees.
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
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  9. #9
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    Thanks so much everyone, I've already had fun spending too much time looking up pedigrees...

    One name that came up a lot was Darshaan (and Shirley Heights) mares crossed on Sadler's Wells. That cross seems to have produced both colts and fillies that raced many times and had career high earnings, over a number of years, from a variety of farms. So far that has been my strongest "family." Those lines look very hard to find in North America.

    And really interesting about Dynaformer, Eventer AJ, even I recognize that name...and although it didn't come up yet, Roberto did! I was following down the paths of Sadler's Wells offspring who listed 20+ starts and $500,000 in earnings as a start. I set up 5 different groups of high performing offspring (Darshaan/Shirley Wells, Secretariat, Native Dancer, Alleged, Roberto) and the next step was going to be to look at what those performers produced. Then I was planning to break down the individual races, to figure out exactly what they are...I know that some of the results for horses I've found aren't steeplechase, I recognize them as Stakes races, not sure how long they are though.

    As far as finding a mare, I am going to spend some time looking through the industry sales offerings and see what's readily available to me, I doubt that I will be able to find a mare on my own...but once I have a good idea what I'm looking to find, my vet can help me with contacts in racing. I like to do my homework though, the bloodlines we're discussing are not popular locally, in our region people breed pretty exclusively for short-distance/hard track. I looked through all of the recent sales and performance records for our Provincial TB association, and only found one similar-looking set of bloodlines.

    Was also curious, in the career of a distance horse, do you expect to see them run short races early in their careers and gradually progress to long distances, or do they tend to race lightly early on then do a lot of starts as older horses?
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  10. #10
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    Dynaformer - I've seen him - my what a miserable bastard he is! Hope his kids are nicer. Fine horse though, very fine.

    As interesting as bloodlines are, you have to have the luck to breed the exact horse you re looking for. And we need to be looking for longevity of soundness in the lines - hence the steeplechasers that race until l4 and more.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    Dynaformer - I've seen him - my what a miserable bastard he is! Hope his kids are nicer. Fine horse though, very fine.

    As interesting as bloodlines are, you have to have the luck to breed the exact horse you re looking for. And we need to be looking for longevity of soundness in the lines - hence the steeplechasers that race until l4 and more.
    There is an interesting difference in how the Irish and French train their chasers. The Irish/English don't start horses aimed at chasing until they are four. Horses usually are started in special flat races for new chaser prospects called "bumpers." Then they go on to Point to Points and from there to hurdles and from there to chasers. Not always, but this is the usual progression.

    The French start their chasers at 2 and start jumping almost immediately. It's my impression that French chasers don't have the same track longevity as the Brits/Irish.

    In all racing, it's common to start young horses in sprints and then move up in distance as they age.

    Another mare family that probably is good for distance as far as mitochondria go is 23-b. It produced many good 4 mile heat horses in the US back in the day. As did 12-b.

    A lot of the old four mile mare lines have become extinct or very nearly so.
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  12. #12
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    As far as "relatively" modern males go, Hyperion was actually tested long after his death and came out to be a T.

    You might find this interesting.
    http://www.tbheritage.com/TurfHallma...ststeeple.html

    There are still some Transworld mares around. He was the sire of Lonesome Glory, maybe one of the best chasers in US History. Lonesome Glory is the Agnes family supposedly, and that is one of the Family 16 branches.

    Battleship was ff10-e, which is still around but barely. That is a family famous for its jumping and chasing.

    There are a number of approximately 4 mile flat races in the rest of the world--just not here.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Apr. 7, 2013 at 04:57 PM.
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  13. #13
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    These discussions get me all excited - wish the sporthorse industry, in
    particular the eventing groups, would work at consolidating these qualities
    before there is no need for them in the racing industry.

    While these horses do not escape injury - the owners/trainers will put the time in to rehab them after an injury so they can race again, and for many more years to come. There is just not the disposable mentality that exists at some tracks.
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
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    Speaking as more of a handicapper, when looking for staying power in a route race. Modern names I look for are Dynaformer, of course, also Lemon Drop Kid, Victory Gallop, or Birdstone. Victory Gallop in particular is by Fapiano who is pretty popular for Ottb sport horses.



  15. #15
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    And Victory Gallop is now in Turkey.
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  16. #16
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    Not sure which mare family this one was from, but I trail rode her all over and did carriage driving marathons with her and she never tired. We would go out trail riding 3-4 hours several days a week, or she could go on a 10 mile driving marathon and come back looking for more. She was also the type that stayed reasonably fit even when she wasn't working much.

    http://tinyurl.com/LillieDarwin1



    Christa
    Last edited by Christa P; Apr. 8, 2013 at 09:09 AM. Reason: Changed link



  17. #17
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    Agnes family.

    There will be a huge change in the TB post Nearctic. Your mare is pre the Nearctic tsunami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christa P View Post
    Not sure which mare family this one was from, but I trail rode her all over and did carriage driving marathons with her and she never tired. We would go out trail riding 3-4 hours several days a week, or she could go on a 10 mile driving marathon and come back looking for more. She was also the type that stayed reasonably fit even when she wasn't working much.

    http://tinyurl.com/LillieDarwin1



    Christa
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  18. #18
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    My mare is a Whiskey Wisdom and would fit your description. There are a few still racing at Woodbine and they mostly seem to go long. A Whiskey Wisdom gelding recently won the Sovereign award for older horse so they seem to have longeivity in their racing careers, too. They tend to be tall from what I have seen. I think Whiskey Wisdom is out in Alberta now.

    Great temperaments, too!



  19. #19
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    This is my ranch horse, he is almost bottomless, with a lovely long efficient, ground covering stride. If I unsaddle him in the forest and let him run home (like if the stock trailer is now filled with bulls), I cannot keep up with him in my pickup on the not-great dirt road:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/brents+choice

    This OTTB mare is the mother of an appendix-QH mare we also ride on the ranch:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/heather+haven
    She definitely has some QH in her, she's not tall and long like Heather Haven probably was-her stride is shorter, but efficient, and she ticks along ALL day and just about never gets tired.



  20. #20
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    Brent's Choice is from the same family as the Alexander Mare tribe. They both trace back to a mare named Lass of The Mill.

    Heaven's Choice ff 5-f, which is the same family as Rough Shod, who was 5-h, but genetic research has proved that there were at least three different founder mares in FF-5. FF5-f is the FF of Planetoid/Grey Flight and Geisha, and is VERY international, with a strong branch in Middle Europe, including Germany.

    Whiskey Wisdom is from the Magnolia tribe--ff4-m. She was imported to the US in the 1840's during heat racing and founded her own exclusively American branch which was subsequently exported back to Europe. It's the family of Maggie B B, primarily, but another line is the FF for Three Bars. This family still is much stronger in the US than in the rest of the world, although it was one of the founder lines for Japanese racing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fillabeana View Post
    This is my ranch horse, he is almost bottomless, with a lovely long efficient, ground covering stride. If I unsaddle him in the forest and let him run home (like if the stock trailer is now filled with bulls), I cannot keep up with him in my pickup on the not-great dirt road:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/brents+choice

    This OTTB mare is the mother of an appendix-QH mare we also ride on the ranch:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/heather+haven
    She definitely has some QH in her, she's not tall and long like Heather Haven probably was-her stride is shorter, but efficient, and she ticks along ALL day and just about never gets tired.
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