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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    Well Blume Farm - Willy Arts comes to mind. He's trained, competed and qualified young horses.

    And what's wrong with paying professionals from Europe to come here to give the training sessionns. As a WB breeder of 27 years - the imporation of quality mares and stallions was absolutely necessary to establish a foundation upon which many of us built our breeding programs. And now we are producing sporthorses and ponies that are on par with Europe. If you have a deficiency which we clearly do with respect to Young Horse Coaches and Trainers - you go and FIND THEM and HIRE THEM to build a program upon which riders and trainers here can learn and progress.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing in a trainer to head a YH trainer...but someone has to want that job and get paid for it. I too think Willy Arts might fit the bill but he also needs to want to do the job.

    I also agree that these sessions should not be invite only or by some private selection system. That I think can be changed immediately by possibly selecting horses that have some qualifying scores in local YH classes...video might be hard as you need someone to watch all those videos. Qualifying scores are an immediate weeding process. Then those selected horses can attend training sessions before another show opportunity or championship class.

    However, finding someone else to prepare, organize and develop this program may prove quite difficult.

    What are the differences in how the YH programs are run in Holland, Germany, England? It is easy to say our program isn't working (and I don't disagree) but what are the differences? What changes can be implemented? These points need to be elucidated to make those changes.
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    Well Blume Farm - Willy Arts comes to mind. He's trained, competed and qualified young horses.

    And what's wrong with paying professionals from Europe to come here to give the training sessionns. As a WB breeder of 27 years - the imporation of quality mares and stallions was absolutely necessary to establish a foundation upon which many of us built our breeding programs. And now we are producing sporthorses and ponies that are on par with Europe. If you have a deficiency which we clearly do with respect to Young Horse Coaches and Trainers - you go and FIND THEM and HIRE THEM to build a program upon which riders and trainers here can learn and progress.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing in a trainer to head a YH trainer...but someone has to want that job and get paid for it. I too think Willy Arts might fit the bill but he also needs to want to do the job.

    I also agree that these sessions should not be invite only or by some private selection system. That I think can be changed immediately by possibly selecting horses that have some qualifying scores in local YH classes...video might be hard as you need someone to watch all those videos. Qualifying scores are an immediate weeding process. Then those selected horses can attend training sessions before another show opportunity or championship class.

    However, finding someone else to prepare, organize and develop this program may prove quite difficult.

    What are the differences in how the YH programs are run in Holland, Germany, England? It is easy to say our program isn't working (and I don't disagree) but what are the differences? What changes can be implemented? These points need to be elucidated to make those changes.
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  3. #43
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    Well the USEF hired Klaus Balkenhol to coach our FEI teams. Why can't we seek out top Young Horse Trainers in Europe and HIRE THEM to come here and provide training sessions?

    And I know Willy Arts probably is too busy but he is an example of someone who actually DOES physically train young horses for the Young Horse Championships and rides them and qualifies them.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"


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  4. #44
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    Scott was a long time trainer at Hilltop Farm, training all tgèir young horses/stallions plus client horses and assistant trainers on other horses (3x YH Champ Selten HW was ridden by Michel Bragdell- Scott's assistant)


    Eliza- the clinics are hard to get into and you have excellent points about the selection process
    However, there are both the YH Training Sessions (the clinics) and the YH Observation sessions. The Obs Sessions are held at set shows, so you do have to travel but they are FREE and you get coached by Scott for two days. You don't have to be competing in the show to participate.


    I made the trip down to CA last year from WA and it was very hehelpful. 5 out of 8 of the riders last year were from the PNW. The Observation Sessions are under attended IMO


    I get the questions about the Training Sessions. We finally have one in the PNW but it will be AFTER the the YH Champs (actual date TBD) so how does that help this years competitors in our area for this year, if you didn't go to CA


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  5. #45
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    Scott was a long time trainer at Hilltop Farm, training all tgèir young horses/stallions plus client horses and assistant trainers on other horses (3x YH Champ Selten HW was ridden by Michel Bragdell- Scott's assistant)

    Yes, and?? Being employed somewhere is not my idea of success in this sport. As for Selten, he was piloted to the win as a 4 yr old by Bragdell but lets face it, the 5 and 6 year old tests are a completely different ballgame. Elizabeth Ball took the horse over and won the 5 and 6 yr old tests.

    Anyways I agree with the Cartier, Ise ect. If you are given all the opportunity in the world as both a rider and a coach and you fail to produce good results in both areas then one really has to wonder. It's great to have enthusiasm but there is A LOT more to being a top rider or coach and I do think there are people in the US who are a lot more suited to the job and if they can't be found then why not get someone like Ulf Moller ect?
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post


    Hate to sound so negative but I can relate. Canada is even farther behind. We had a similar situation up here when Robert Dover was team coach. So basically you had to pay an arm and a leg (I think it cost me around $1500.00) to ride in this session only to be told that "hey, you are a talented rider but if you are serious about the sport you need to get out of Alberta" and that we all need to get down to his or another Olympian's barn in Florida/California and get into a program. It's like great, so I just payed how much to be told something that we all already know ? I mean it was fun to be part of the clinic but I just don't know why it was promoted by Dressage Canada as a "talent search" of sorts because Dressage Canada of course did not give anyone help to go down and train (even though one of the riders ended up going and made the WEG team).
    Who knows....
    Just wondering sincerely. What did you expect to hear?
    I think they are looking for talent that is ready to compete in the international ring and while I think it is good to help people see the vision it is not their job to put ever person that can afford to go to the clinic into training.



  7. #47
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    It seems odd that a country would hire a coach who was unwilling to coach except in another country thousands of miles away. Some people already have good coaches at home and are looking for strategies for improvement, not wholesale relocation. And if that is how RD views the role of the US dressage coach, god help the riders if he's chosen--even though the job description makes it clear that the riders work with their own coaches primarily.



    Quote Originally Posted by stoicfish View Post
    Just wondering sincerely. What did you expect to hear?
    I think they are looking for talent that is ready to compete in the international ring and while I think it is good to help people see the vision it is not their job to put ever person that can afford to go to the clinic into training.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    It seems odd that a country would hire a coach who was unwilling to coach except in another country thousands of miles away. Some people already have good coaches at home and are looking for strategies for improvement, not wholesale relocation. And if that is how RD views the role of the US dressage coach, god help the riders if he's chosen--even though the job description makes it clear that the riders work with their own coaches primarily.
    We have a small population and an even smaller population that is supporting dressage. Alberta is not the place to be if you want to be with your dressage peers. Like if you want to play hockey you go to Canada to train if you live in Florida, dressage is the reverse for similar reasons. It is cold up here!
    I think there are issues of course with EC but encouraging people to go to where the best are training is not an unreasonable statement (as Kyla pointed out also). Many of the very serious young people are going to Europe to train with great results. Plus Canada is a big place.... you have to centralize your resources at some point. Many talented riders in Canada do spend their time in the south to get the exposure and experience.
    Eric's farm is named after a golf course in California. lol

    I just wondered what she thought he should have said or suggested for her.



  9. #49
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    Just wondering sincerely. What did you expect to hear?
    I think they are looking for talent that is ready to compete in the international ring and while I think it is good to help people see the vision it is not their job to put ever person that can afford to go to the clinic into training.


    My point is they don't put anyone in training. Bonny made the WEG team but she had to get herself down there and make the attempt on her own. Crystal was told that her horse was talented enough to produce an individual medal but it wasn't DC that shipped her down to Florida and into a program with RD! The bottom line is that DC wants people who already have superstar GP horses to fund their own way to the podium. Great, but that's the only way any Canadian has ever made it to the podium before so why advertise as if something is going to change? It hasn't, and it likely won't. DC clearly has no desire or intention to seek out or support up and coming talent so why pretend ? DC takes our money and what it does with it, I really have no idea. I know I am not the only one....

    Again, we didn't ride in the clinic expecting to have DC fund our way to Florida with a third level horse. We rode in it to ride with RD. But I really thought by the way it was promoted that EC/DC had some role to play....
    Last edited by Donella; Apr. 13, 2013 at 12:47 AM.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  10. #50
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    In this discussion, I think people need to keep in mind what a successful "young horse" is versus a successful "Dressage horse". Historically, relatively few of the young horse phenoms become good international dressage horses or dressage horse producers. On the flip side, some notable GP phenoms/dressage sires bombed out early in their career. Great European auction horses ridden to within an inch of their sanity does not necessarily predict GP success. Or soundness past their auction days. At the very least, Scott has ridden many horses to GP, and although he never showed much, he's a good rider. So is Suzanne. They are very good with young horses because they've made their niche doing that and can afford to become experts. But they cost a fortune and only limited (select) people can work with them. In my opinion, we have lots of nice young horses - and trainers - but the country is too big, the expense to haul and show are too high, and to get a nice young prospect under a good trainer and do the national Young Horse thing is way more expensive than it is in Germany or Holland. And it is very political. I don't think we have the mechanism to identify the best horses the US breeds like Germany does. I'm also not sure that's a huge problem. Lots of people breed to Young horse stars - who may or may not have the soundness to make it to a sustained GP career. Further, lots of trainers forego the Young Horse auction-riding because they have the eye on the FEI ball and realize that many horses need to progress on their own time rather than the time outlined by the young horse tests. I'd love it if we could stop comparing ourselves to Europe and design programs that work for the American market, for horse longevity, and to maximize the talent of the horses and riders we have here.
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation


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  11. #51
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    From my personal experience( And I preface this post by saying just that---MY personal experience, not expertice):

    FIRST: the closed session ( I was told) is so that the owners, breeders/friends are not there so that Scott can be brutally honest with the rider. This is to eliminate embarasment to the rider or to the horse. As a breeder/owner--I NEED to know if this horse/rider is worth all the time and $$$$$ needed to persue this avenue or to go the normal levels. I do not want a filtered report from anyone, I need to see and evaluate myself. It is the only program I know of that excludes owners. The high performance clinics do ALLOW owners and personal trainers to be present.

    SECOND: The selection for YH clinics is pretty much a case of who knows who. But the observation sessions are open to anyone who wants to go and are open to the public if held on a showgrounds. My horses have not participated in the clinics but have gone to the observation session in Wellington. If I could not afford to have my horses in FL, we would have to travel long distances to even get to them if we even knew about them in time( this past January the closing date for the OS was a week before it was posted on USEF website. a phone call got us in). The Observation clinic is simple- you ride your horse your way and Scott will tell you you need more or less of this or that.

    THIRD: There IS a huge difference between a YH candidate and a GP candidate. A top GP candidate will be behind in their strength and gaits as a YH. The YH candidate is all about expression of the gaits and not about the test movements. It is also very difficult to get a horse qualified here in the USA for the International Championships. Our qualifiers are too early in the year-January to May. Selection trials are in June. That means a 5 yr old most times is doing the test before it is truly 5. That is soooo hard on them. So we peak them for the selection trial in June and then have to ship, most for the first time in their lives, by air to a competition held in late July in Europe. It is no wonder that we are an epic fail in Germany, look at what we put our YH through.

    FOURTH: Coaching is a demanding and thankless job, no matter who does it. I believe it would be very hard to find someone to meet all of your criteria: did or doing the making of sucessful YH. and teach/coach/and run their business, etc. FWIW I believe that if the International Championship is the goal, then we should employ the time of several people who already come to the USA to clinic and are top experts. Two come to mind immeadiately-Christof Hess (YH judge to tell us what they value)and Ulf Moeller(sucessful trainer). You could add Morton Thompson as well.

    FIFTH: Judging is confusing here in the USA. Flame suit on-we are sending the wrong horses over to represent the US as we are being judged differently than they do it in Germany( can't speak for other countries, but have watched both of these for many years in person). Yes, some judges have gone to the training sessions at the International championships. I have sought out those for my horses here once they return--and still walk away discouraged and confused. One day, the horse goes in with brilliance, obedient but tense. Told to relax and score would be higher. Next day, a much more relaxed text, still expressive, but not extravagent and told, need more and then scores less! You just can't train if messages are opposite of each other. (BTW- same judges and video of both rides at more than one show) This happens often. You do see some of the same riders with different horses score highly consistantly. Halo points I think. They know how to present a horse well and do it regularly. But sometimes we can see a disobedient horse outscore one that is less brilliant but supple and obedient. I have seen and heard a gait score be punished for submission or tension, then also the submission score and the overall impression score. Thus penalizing the same movement three times. In Germany, if a horse is correct in the gait, supple and obedient, even with a mistake- it can score an 9.6 on that gait!!!! Woodlander Farouche is the exact example I am speaking of. I was personally there for both her 5 and 6 y r old tests. She is amazing and is rewarded for it. But another horse with a similar mistake might only get a 8.0, quite a difference.


    As for some of the superstar young GP horses burning out. There is a reason for that in my opinion. We are purpose breeding top quality horses now. They want to work, the work is easy for them and we take what they offer and then we use them up before they are 10, both physically and mentally. Remember in the past it took to age 10 before a GP horse was competing at the CDI levels. We all forget that the warmblood takes to about age 7 or 8 to stop growing and have the joints close. But more importantly, we forget it takes about another 2 years for ligaments and tendons to get strong enough to do that type of work for extended periods of time. Our show seasons are non stop, so there is no down time. Top International GP horses are so valuable and fragile that they in general get no to little turnout to stretch. Warm ups are no longer stretching as that might be looked at as rollkur. So a small mis step that in the past was stall rest for rehab, is now career ending or life threatening. Look at Matinee and Totilas as the two most visible examples of this.
    Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
    www.marydellfarm.com
    2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
    2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!


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  12. #52
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    Donella - most of the stallions at Hilltop were imported with significant training on them when they arrived there. As for the young horse training besides Michael there were others who worked behind the scenes starting numerous young horses so don't give all the credit to just two people. i believe when a trainer advertises that they have trained numerous horses TO Grand Prix they should indicate which horses. It's just a verification of their work - similar to what anyone would put on their resume.

    Maryann - I agree with your completely that the judging in this country is all over the map. Makes it very hard to understand some of the scoring when it doesn't agree with what's in the rules/regs. Also the range in scores is hard to analyze - yes there can be variances depending on where the judge is sitting but they shouldn't vary over a certain range.

    If the USEF/USDF want to continue this Young Horse Program they need to look in the mirror abit and ask themselves if the mean/median scores are not improving every year and are completey out of synch with what the YH scores are in Europe - it's time to figure out what's wrong and fix it or abandon it.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    My point is they don't put anyone in training. Bonny made the WEG team but she had to get herself down there and make the attempt on her own. Crystal was told that her horse was talented enough to produce an individual medal but it wasn't DC that shipped her down to Florida and into a program with RD! The bottom line is that DC wants people who already have superstar GP horses to fund their own way to the podium. Great, but that's the only way any Canadian has ever made it to the podium before so why advertise as if something is going to change? It hasn't, and it likely won't. DC clearly has no desire or intention to seek out or support up and coming talent so why pretend ? DC takes our money and what it does with it, I really have no idea. I know I am not the only one....

    Again, we didn't ride in the clinic expecting to have DC fund our way to Florida with a third level horse. We rode in it to ride with RD. But I really thought by the way it was promoted that EC/DC had some role to play....
    Fair enough.
    Me and a friend were having this discussion a while ago. While I would love to be able to support both the short list and long list of horses and riders, there are 18 horses on the short list and 15people, if you gave each only 10k that would be $150k, never mind the long list. And 10k would be nice but the fact is it is not going to make that much of a difference. Riders have to find a way to subsidize themselves in a sustainable way. A good dressage rider takes many years to make, with a huge amount of experience and I doubt it would be feasible to try support most of them along the way. The horse is the biggest part of that equation, you can have a great rider but unless they have a way of obtaining that horse consistently, they are not going to be competitive. That takes a great deal of resources and seems to weed out many riders, unfortunately.
    Then EC/DC must set up the infrastructure and promote the sport. I don't know how much money they have for a budget but I bet it isn't that much. I think breeders with top potential stock can have a bigger influence by subsidizing these riders with potential horses.



  14. #54
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    Very well said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marydell View Post
    From my personal experience( And I preface this post by saying just that---MY personal experience, not expertice):

    FIRST: the closed session ( I was told) is so that the owners, breeders/friends are not there so that Scott can be brutally honest with the rider. This is to eliminate embarasment to the rider or to the horse. As a breeder/owner--I NEED to know if this horse/rider is worth all the time and $$$$$ needed to persue this avenue or to go the normal levels. I do not want a filtered report from anyone, I need to see and evaluate myself. It is the only program I know of that excludes owners. The high performance clinics do ALLOW owners and personal trainers to be present.

    SECOND: The selection for YH clinics is pretty much a case of who knows who. But the observation sessions are open to anyone who wants to go and are open to the public if held on a showgrounds. My horses have not participated in the clinics but have gone to the observation session in Wellington. If I could not afford to have my horses in FL, we would have to travel long distances to even get to them if we even knew about them in time( this past January the closing date for the OS was a week before it was posted on USEF website. a phone call got us in). The Observation clinic is simple- you ride your horse your way and Scott will tell you you need more or less of this or that.

    THIRD: There IS a huge difference between a YH candidate and a GP candidate. A top GP candidate will be behind in their strength and gaits as a YH. The YH candidate is all about expression of the gaits and not about the test movements. It is also very difficult to get a horse qualified here in the USA for the International Championships. Our qualifiers are too early in the year-January to May. Selection trials are in June. That means a 5 yr old most times is doing the test before it is truly 5. That is soooo hard on them. So we peak them for the selection trial in June and then have to ship, most for the first time in their lives, by air to a competition held in late July in Europe. It is no wonder that we are an epic fail in Germany, look at what we put our YH through.

    FOURTH: Coaching is a demanding and thankless job, no matter who does it. I believe it would be very hard to find someone to meet all of your criteria: did or doing the making of sucessful YH. and teach/coach/and run their business, etc. FWIW I believe that if the International Championship is the goal, then we should employ the time of several people who already come to the USA to clinic and are top experts. Two come to mind immeadiately-Christof Hess (YH judge to tell us what they value)and Ulf Moeller(sucessful trainer). You could add Morton Thompson as well.

    FIFTH: Judging is confusing here in the USA. Flame suit on-we are sending the wrong horses over to represent the US as we are being judged differently than they do it in Germany( can't speak for other countries, but have watched both of these for many years in person). Yes, some judges have gone to the training sessions at the International championships. I have sought out those for my horses here once they return--and still walk away discouraged and confused. One day, the horse goes in with brilliance, obedient but tense. Told to relax and score would be higher. Next day, a much more relaxed text, still expressive, but not extravagent and told, need more and then scores less! You just can't train if messages are opposite of each other. (BTW- same judges and video of both rides at more than one show) This happens often. You do see some of the same riders with different horses score highly consistantly. Halo points I think. They know how to present a horse well and do it regularly. But sometimes we can see a disobedient horse outscore one that is less brilliant but supple and obedient. I have seen and heard a gait score be punished for submission or tension, then also the submission score and the overall impression score. Thus penalizing the same movement three times. In Germany, if a horse is correct in the gait, supple and obedient, even with a mistake- it can score an 9.6 on that gait!!!! Woodlander Farouche is the exact example I am speaking of. I was personally there for both her 5 and 6 y r old tests. She is amazing and is rewarded for it. But another horse with a similar mistake might only get a 8.0, quite a difference.


    As for some of the superstar young GP horses burning out. There is a reason for that in my opinion. We are purpose breeding top quality horses now. They want to work, the work is easy for them and we take what they offer and then we use them up before they are 10, both physically and mentally. Remember in the past it took to age 10 before a GP horse was competing at the CDI levels. We all forget that the warmblood takes to about age 7 or 8 to stop growing and have the joints close. But more importantly, we forget it takes about another 2 years for ligaments and tendons to get strong enough to do that type of work for extended periods of time. Our show seasons are non stop, so there is no down time. Top International GP horses are so valuable and fragile that they in general get no to little turnout to stretch. Warm ups are no longer stretching as that might be looked at as rollkur. So a small mis step that in the past was stall rest for rehab, is now career ending or life threatening. Look at Matinee and Totilas as the two most visible examples of this.



  15. #55
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    ^^^Very well said. Good points and areas that I think can be fixed: 1) better notice for the observation clinics, better publicity 2) better training of the judges. Maybe we need to have a judges forum held here to help instruct the judges. 3) I do think keeping some clinics closed is good. I have ridden in many clinics...some open, some closed and we get much more accomplished in the closed ones as the clinician feels much more able to truly instruct and get past some not so pretty issues. No one wants to do this in public. And no, I am not saying the horses are abused, rollkur etc in the closed clinics.

    Also, for as much interest there is on this board that doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. Last year there was an Ulf Moeller clinic in MD that was still soliciting riders a month or so before. I wasn't there, but it didn't seem to have the same attendance as one would hope (maybe someone that attended could chime in). It was a clinic that I would have thought every breeder within an 8hr driving distance would have attended (me included, but I had just had surgery). I wish that clinic would have been taped or televised (even for a fee I would have happily paid).
    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    Willy Arts comes to mind. He's trained, competed and qualified young horses.
    Ditto x 1,000.

    And let's add that he/DG Bar also bred many of these nice horses.
    -Amor vincit omnia-


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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    In my opinion, we have lots of nice young horses - and trainers - but the country is too big, the expense to haul and show are too high, and to get a nice young prospect under a good trainer and do the national Young Horse thing is way more expensive than it is in Germany or Holland... I don't think we have the mechanism to identify the best horses the US breeds like Germany does.
    One way to overcome the "US is too big" issue, is to divide it into regions - West, Midwest, East, and have qualified coaches/talent scouts work the YH program in those areas. They would serve under the YH head coach. More events would be held, more horses would be seen, owners/breeders/riders would have more exposure to the system.
    -Amor vincit omnia-


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  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=Blume Farm;6937595
    Also, for as much interest there is on this board that doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. Last year there was an Ulf Moeller clinic in MD that was still soliciting riders a month or so before. I wasn't there, but it didn't seem to have the same attendance as one would hope (maybe someone that attended could chime in). It was a clinic that I would have thought every breeder within an 8hr driving distance would have attended (me included, but I had just had surgery). I wish that clinic would have been taped or televised (even for a fee I would have happily paid).[/QUOTE]
    Blume - if I remember correctly the price per session with Dr. Moeller was somewhere between $300 and $400 (!!) and those sessions were only going to be 45 minutes "because the horses were young"! How many people can or want to afford that? Compare that with a clinic with Willy Arts where I remember spending $100/1 hour session not too long ago and you see how ridiculous some of these clinic charges are.
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marydell View Post
    From my personal experience( And I preface this post by saying just that---MY personal experience, not expertice):



    THIRD: There IS a huge difference between a YH candidate and a GP candidate. A top GP candidate will be behind in their strength and gaits as a YH. The YH candidate is all about expression of the gaits and not about the test movements. It is also very difficult to get a horse qualified here in the USA for the International Championships. Our qualifiers are too early in the year-January to May. Selection trials are in June. That means a 5 yr old most times is doing the test before it is truly 5. That is soooo hard on them. So we peak them for the selection trial in June and then have to ship, most for the first time in their lives, by air to a competition held in late July in Europe. It is no wonder that we are an epic fail in Germany, look at what we put our YH through.
    Interesting thread. I have a young filly who was being looked at as a YH candidate, and I didn't know that much about the program.

    So how is this done in Germany/Denmark/Holland,etc? Probably no need for us to re-invent the wheel, so do they start their youngsters so early?

    Like reining & racing, it does "cull" the population when you start them that young and many good horses are wasted because their development did not match the timetable of competition/licensing/performance/etc.

    In that sense it is very wasteful.

    However it IS profitable $$ wise, because any farmer will tell you the shorter the "to market" the bigger the dollars/euros.

    Germany licenses their stallions at 2yrs don't they? I mean, how many of them are an honest 3 yrs old? And testing? Aren't they just 3 yrs old then? MAYBE 4? So how early were they started then? I'm sure they don't send their boys to the testing without prep -- LOTS of prep.

    Is this system working?

    Having observed this change in TB racing & reining I can tell you it ended up really impacting the breeding end, because early maturers (?) ended up selling faster/sooner/more $$.

    Luckily, when reining became an FEI sport, this gave a place for older horses to shine, because prior to that there wasn't alot going on for a reiner over the age of 6. Imagine! Done with your career at 6.

    So beware the "fad" of early maturity spreading to in the sporthorse industry.

    The bottom line (strictly from my observation) seems to result in many young horses over-looked because they needed for time, so those "lines" become far less popular in the breeding shed as well.

    And the ones that DO make it all the way through (and some do and always will) -- you can be assured those horses are not only talented, but tough as nails...physically, mentally, all the way.

    You will just have to "waste" alot more horses doing it this way...



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    Blume - if I remember correctly the price per session with Dr. Moeller was somewhere between $300 and $400 (!!) and those sessions were only going to be 45 minutes "because the horses were young"! How many people can or want to afford that? Compare that with a clinic with Willy Arts where I remember spending $100/1 hour session not too long ago and you see how ridiculous some of these clinic charges are.
    Having sent a horse to this clinic, it was well worth the fee of $300, in my opinion. There were some nice horses at this clinic and Ulf did very well with them. My trainer brought 2 horses (mine and her own) and felt that she got more out of that clinic than she had with many other clinics (eg, Conrad Schumacher), especially for her 6 year old horse. She said that the training breakthough she had with that horse at Ulf's clinic was miraculous given that she had taken that horse to multiple other clinicians without nearly as much improvement. The bad part about that clinic was that the Hasslers were having a clinic at Riveredge the same weekend, so that is why not as many could attend Ulf's clinic. But there were a lot of auditors and the clinic had good entries (Maryanna sent multiple horses).

    But I do agree that we need more experienced riders who know how to ride these YH tests and I am not convinced that the current coaching scheme is producing the results. The horses that I saw go at Ulf's clinic all showed a lot of improvement, and of course, he and his wife have tremendous knowledge about preparing lots of young horses.


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