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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Unless your gun is illegal (in which case you have more problems than shooting a criminal) or you have a LOUSY lawyer, in most states, you will not go to jail for killing someone who is threatening you. (Yes, there are states like MA, where you need a permit for mace/pepper spray and where in most cases, if you're assaulted, you don't have a legal weapon at all. Yes, there, you probably WILL go to jail for killing an intruder, even if you have the highest-level permit and even if the dead guy was a rapist or murderer.*) If you have an ILLEGAL weapon, you already ARE a criminal, so this discussion doesn't apply to you.

    Aim for center body mass. It's not a question of "shoot to kill" vs. "shoot to wound" (which only exists in the movies--a shot in the arm or leg can be fatal just as easily--heck, breaking your femur can be fatal because that is a BIG artery). It's "shoot at what you're most likely to hit." The bulls-eye on a police range target is more or less center of the upper chest. Even in the EXTREMELY unlikely event they're wearing body armor of some kind, unless you're shooting with a pellet gun (not a good choice; biggest caliber you can handle shooting is best) hitting them in the chest WILL hurt, will probably knock them down, and will cause them a lot of pain. But the average assailant is not wearing body armor.

    *My brother's boss said, his wife, who grew up in Harlem, points out to people that while mace, pepper spray, and any sort of defensive weapon is basically illegal in NYC, there's no law against happening to have just bought a can of oven cleaner...she's just saying.

    I would rather deal with the potentially annoying legal consequences than the REALLY gruesome consequences of being raped or worse. You are not going to talk someone out of robbing, raping, or killing you.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Alabama
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    7,429

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    If you don't want to learn to shoot, and are willing to shoot to kill in defense of your life, or your family's life inside your own home, then don't get a gun. If you are just going to wave a gun around, then just get a baseball bat or whatever you can use, because if someone breaks into an occupied house you are probably going to get hurt. If you don't intent to defend yourself, or can't defend yourself for a moral, or other reason, then get a good alarm system that is monitored, and use it 100% of the time. Hope the police or the alarm company get there in time to rescue you.

    In my neighborhood (suburb, in the country, on what used to be farm land) most of my neighbors are special forces, so the big competition is for me to load, and fire before the guys get here with the heavy weapons. Anyone breaking into a house here is a fool, or an insider insurance scam, because it's very obvious where all of the neighbors work, and many of the wives are even better shots.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  3. #43
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    Aug. 10, 2009
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    893

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    Anyone breaking into a house here is a fool, or an insider insurance scam, because it's very obvious where all of the neighbors work, and many of the wives are even better shots.
    My boyfriend spent 16 years in special forces, many of those as a sniper, and while he is a hell of a shot from 100 yards away, I smoke him with my handgun at the range every time. We actually went there on one of our first dates and as we drove home he said "holy shit", referring to my accuracy.

    To the OP, I am prepared to do whatever it takes to protect myself, my home, and my dogs. Of course, first they have to get past the dogs (well, dog, as one of them is about as threatening as a rocking chair). But the threatening dog does an EXCELLENT job. Should he not be sufficient, I am absolutely prepared to shoot to kill, aiming for center mass so that I am pretty much guaranteed to hit them SOMEWHERE. At the range I practice under time and under stress. It's not quite the same as a home invasion, but anyone who is trying to get in my house without my knowledge has no business being there and is taking a big chance. Knowing that, I assume they have only the worst intentions and I have absolutely no qualms about their fate at that point.



  4. #44
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    May. 5, 2008
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    Scranton, PA
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    710

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    My handgun, the Taurus Judge (.45) also shoots a 410 shotgun round. Best of both worlds and while the scatter will not be as big as your shotgun, it's a lot more forgiving than a bullet for your aim being off a bit. Some shotguns are a lot for a woman to handle also and kick very badly.
    Love mine too! And with next to no kick, a woman can't go wrong with it.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
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    passepartout
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    What a heart-warming thread.

    All this talk about home intrusions and shoot-to-kill and firepower, yet any actual crimes and threats aren't exactly happening. One of you even said there's 'little if no crime' in your area.

    I've lived in some pretty sketchy areas at times, with high crime rates and gang activity and so on, but I've never felt the need to own a firearm. Block/neighbourhood safety? Yes. Bars on windows? Yes. Phone numbers at the ready? Yes. Exit plans? Alarms? Yes. But not arming myself.

    I say this as someone who shoots regularly (several times/week) and competes in pistol events. I love shooting for sport but I really don't get this (fantasy) siege mentality or share your enthusiasm for Fifty Shades of Intruder-Shooting.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    14,733

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    *My brother's boss said, his wife, who grew up in Harlem, points out to people that while mace, pepper spray, and any sort of defensive weapon is basically illegal in NYC, there's no law against happening to have just bought a can of oven cleaner...she's just saying.
    I just read recently that the best choice along those lines is a can of wasp spray, since it's designed to spray a stream (at a "wasp's" eyes, for example) from a distance of 20 feet, rather than needing to get up close and personal.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Suffolk, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHunterKid90 View Post
    Love mine too! And with next to no kick, a woman can't go wrong with it.
    The only issue I'm having is the trigger pull causes me to shoot more to the right. I've got to work on that. I'm a lot more accurate with a lower caliber gun but pretty sure I'd rather have this gun back in the wilderness when I backpack alone.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Aug. 10, 2009
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    893

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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    What a heart-warming thread.

    All this talk about home intrusions and shoot-to-kill and firepower, yet any actual crimes and threats aren't exactly happening. One of you even said there's 'little if no crime' in your area.

    I've lived in some pretty sketchy areas at times, with high crime rates and gang activity and so on, but I've never felt the need to own a firearm. Block/neighbourhood safety? Yes. Bars on windows? Yes. Phone numbers at the ready? Yes. Exit plans? Alarms? Yes. But not arming myself.

    I say this as someone who shoots regularly (several times/week) and competes in pistol events. I love shooting for sport but I really don't get this (fantasy) siege mentality or share your enthusiasm for Fifty Shades of Intruder-Shooting.
    Actually, my assistant's step brother was killed yesterday when he attempted a home invasion to procure prescription drugs. She has no ill will toward the home owner who was protecting himself and his wife and is mostly just sad that her step bro was not willing and able to accept the help that had been offered to him throughout the years.

    I have also had my home broken into, fortunately I was not home at the time. I moved a few days later because I was too terrified to be there. Last year I had a former employee smash out my home and car windows after being fired. I have turned that terror into a plan if I should ever be targeted in the future. This is not a "fantasy" mentality. It's preparation, and hopefully I am prepared for something that will never happen, but I'd rather be on the right side of the gun than the wrong one.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Mar. 10, 2007
    Location
    Montana
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    4,533

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    Our gun is primarily for bears (we call it the Bear Gun) but it sure will protect us all in a pinch. I would be shocked if we needed to use it on a person but we live in a small town on hard times. I hope we continue to never need to fire the thing except for practice but if the poo hits the spinner it's right here and even the kids can run it. It kicks like a mo-fo but it's a pistol grip so if you let it come past your hip it's a nicely balanced move that doesn't bother.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Mar. 30, 2013
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    Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    What a heart-warming thread.

    All this talk about home intrusions and shoot-to-kill and firepower, yet any actual crimes and threats aren't exactly happening. One of you even said there's 'little if no crime' in your area.

    I've lived in some pretty sketchy areas at times, with high crime rates and gang activity and so on, but I've never felt the need to own a firearm. Block/neighbourhood safety? Yes. Bars on windows? Yes. Phone numbers at the ready? Yes. Exit plans? Alarms? Yes. But not arming myself.

    I say this as someone who shoots regularly (several times/week) and competes in pistol events. I love shooting for sport but I really don't get this (fantasy) siege mentality or share your enthusiasm for Fifty Shades of Intruder-Shooting.
    The ideal scenario for all of us is we never have to shoot at anyone. That said, should someone break into our houses, we'd like to be prepared. We're not doomsday preppers (good show btw) preparing for a siege, but we'd like to be able to stop someone that is threatening the well being of ourselves, our families and our animals.

    The fact that that person lives in an area with little or no crime is because all their neighbors are armed and the potential intuders know this. If you were an intruder, would you choose to break into a house where someone is armed, or where someone isn't?
    Of the heart-aching, hard-working, hope-having, horse-loving and horse-less variety. We are a sad species indeed.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun. 25, 2004
    Location
    Carolinas
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    4,286

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    Two weeks ago 2 dogs attacked one of my barn cats. Like a fool I ran out unarmed except for my voice which was, THIS TIME, sufficient to make the larger dog leave. NOT before it twice, as in 2 different times, tried to pick up my cat and carry her back into the woods. The cat is now in a second round of antibiotics for infected puncture wound, of about 10 or more, and a broken rib.

    Before that day I wondered what I would do if an animal or human were to attack our animals or us or try to break into the house. After watching the attack and the impact on the cat, I know now I will use the gun, a rake, the car, wasp spray or whatever is handy. As DH noted, and he has a long military background, the cat now has a feline form of PTSD. This was a cat who never met a stranger, always comfortable moving about our property. Now she stays close to me when allowed outside and so far heads back into the secured outside area where she is recuperating. And this is a cat! Imagine how a violent attack would affect any of us or our loved ones.

    No I don't see myself as Annie Oakley, but I didn't have to depend on my shooting skills to feed my family as she did. I do need to remember my CWP training and the refreshers we take to be aware of my surroundings, move away from danger if possible and defend myself when danger approaches.

    I increase my probability of survival by carrying my Judge, with a mix of 410 and 45 shells and have access to a 20 gauge shotgun. I find the 20 gauge "easier" for me to handle than the 12 or 10 gauge but just as effective.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  12. #52
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    May. 25, 2012
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    482

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    JER,

    Do some people appear to enjoy guns, and this conversation about center mass, a little too much?

    Perhaps. But there's no law against enjoying what is both legal and practical. Yet.

    Please see my earlier post about my first foray into gun ownership being the result of a very real and very frightening break in.

    And that I changed my mind about the realistic chances of shooting an intruder versus shooting someone else and realized that the security I felt when first owning a gun was illusory.

    I also have heard, over and over again, from our corporate security guys, that mace/pepper spray/handguns etc., are most frequently reported as used 1.) accidently and/or 2.) against the owner.

    So I'm sticking with my shotgun. And yes, I can handle the kick. Seems to be a lower consequence event that missing with every shot in the clip.



  13. #53
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    Aug. 22, 2009
    Location
    Dumfries, VA
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    141

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    I am a retired Police Officer and a firearms instructor. You DO NOT shoot to "kill" or "wound" you shoot to "Eliminate the threat!" Under stress the first thing you loss is your fine motor skills including aiming a gun. So what you have left is to shot in the direction of the threat until is it no longer a threat! Period


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    14,524

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    As for my walk-the-walk perspective-if I'm willing to kill someone it means the stakes are high enough that I'm willing to deal with the consequences. If I ended up in jail b/c I shot someone that was going to harm me or my family that's fine, I'd do the time. If I would not shoot b/c of fear of punishment it would mean that I shouldn't be shooting in the first place, IMO.
    That sounds reasonable to me. In other words, if I thought I could lose anything not too precious-- my life, a family members life or my rape-free-status-- it makes sense to not shoot the intruder.

    In other words, if I had the capacity to kill someone for ripping off my TV, would I?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  15. #55
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    7,882

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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    You aim for center mass - its the biggest target.

    Not sure about laws regarding when you can shoot someone. I live in Florida, our gun laws pretty much let you shoot anyone anywhere anytime - lol.
    The Object of the Exercise is to STOP the assault on your life (or the life of another). If that action takes the life of the assailant then so be it. If they survive, so be it. When a person presumes to assault another with deadly force they assume the risk of of death or serious bodily harm.

    The surest way to STOP the assailant is to aim center of mass. "Shoot to wound" is a '50s TV cowboy myth. An injured assailant can still kill you.

    In every jurisdiction I'm aware of the basic law is that a person may use deadly force to protect them self or another if:

    a. They are put in fear of death or grievous bodily harm, and

    b. A reasonable person under the same or similar conditions would be put in fear of death or grievous bodily harm.

    Both conditions must be satisfied for a claim of self defense to be successful against a criminal charge of homicide or a civil claim for wrongful death. Be prepared to hire a good lawyer if you're ever charged or sued.

    If you live in a "gun friendly state" you're a whole lot better off than if you live in places like D.C., N.Y.C., Chicago, etc.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    You are not going to talk someone out of robbing, raping, or killing you.
    I think history shows that this is not categorically true.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  17. #57
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    Sep. 24, 2004
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    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
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    "You are not going to talk someone out of robbing, raping, or killing you."

    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I think history shows that this is not categorically true.
    Nothing is certain but probability offers some insight. You offer no resistance, no outside help is coming. 99% you are robbed, raped or killed.

    You are prepared, mentally, physically, tactically. 1% you are robbed, raped or killed.

    You talk....even piss yourself (see link) the % you are robbed, raped or killed is somewhere between the above.

    Each of us choses their position in the continuum. I prefer the lesser %



    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/20/justic...nes/index.html



  18. #58
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    Mar. 1, 2003
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    Happily in Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbieS View Post
    The ideal scenario for all of us is we never have to shoot at anyone. That said, should someone break into our houses, we'd like to be prepared. We're not doomsday preppers (good show btw) preparing for a siege, but we'd like to be able to stop someone that is threatening the well being of ourselves, our families and our animals.

    The fact that that person lives in an area with little or no crime is because all their neighbors are armed and the potential intuders know this. If you were an intruder, would you choose to break into a house where someone is armed, or where someone isn't?
    Quote Originally Posted by kimball56 View Post
    I am a retired Police Officer and a firearms instructor. You DO NOT shoot to "kill" or "wound" you shoot to "Eliminate the threat!" Under stress the first thing you loss is your fine motor skills including aiming a gun. So what you have left is to shot in the direction of the threat until is it no longer a threat! Period
    Is anyone else reading this thread, and these sorts of quotes, and thinking of Oscar Pistorious' defense? Shoot first, ask questions later?
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  19. #59
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    Aug. 12, 2002
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    Calera, AL
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    I was trained by my ex-special forces step dad. His instructions: Shoot to kill, aim at body mass and empty the magazine/chamber. I think the only thing that might get me in trouble in my state is the empty the chamber thing. However, he really wanted me to put down the offender - and honestly, if there's someone in my house, I want the put down, too!

    We have a castle law in Alabama. I do need to see if it covers the barn/pastures. The barn can get a little spooky at times in the winter when it's dark. When cars show up, it freaks me out (I live on a dead end dirt road).
    "Dogs are man's best friend. Cats are man's adorable little serial killer." -- theoatmeal.com



  20. #60
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    Sep. 24, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by alabama View Post
    I was trained by my ex-special forces step dad. His instructions: Shoot to kill, aim at body mass and empty the magazine/chamber. I think the only thing that might get me in trouble in my state is the empty the chamber thing. However, he really wanted me to put down the offender - and honestly, if there's someone in my house, I want the put down, too!

    We have a castle law in Alabama. I do need to see if it covers the barn/pastures. The barn can get a little spooky at times in the winter when it's dark. When cars show up, it freaks me out (I live on a dead end dirt road).
    If the intruder is standing or moving toward you, he's a threat. Continue firing.


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