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  1. #21
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    Oct. 25, 2012
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    Easy to SAY "Shoot to kill." Not so easy to actually DO it, or to live with the psychic fallout of having done so.

    Each and every person who has the means to use deadly force owes it to themselves to read Col. Grossman's superb book On Combat and On Killing. You need to know the legal ramifications, the ways around the "freeze" reaction that may well disable you in the moment, and what you're likely to feel after--BEFORE that robber is climbing in the window. These books will not talk you out of it; they will properly prepare you.

    Please read these books, which are written for cops and the military. It ain't like in the movies.



  2. #22
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    Oct. 16, 2008
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    I think there is a big difference between killing for others, which is what police and military personnel do, and killing to defend oneself. And of course there will be psychic fallout to kill an assailant, just like there will be a psychic fall out to deal with being a rape victim, or watching your family get killed while contemplating whether you should or should not shoot.


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  3. #23
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    May. 17, 2001
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    Tip I learned from watching Southland:

    If you hit someone with 2 shots in the chest and they keeping coming at you, shoot for the head. They are wearing a vest.



  4. #24
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    Police & military also have tactical training. Most civilians don't. Tactical training takes into account the various psychological factors of both perpetrator and defender and also teaches one how to use terrain, cover, how to keep going through the shock of being wounded, etc.

    READ THE BOOKS. They are mostly tactical and 100% real world.



  5. #25
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    Of course they are real world. There are tons of studies about how a soldier suffers from shooting at the enemies, or soldiers who are hesitate to shoot at the enemy at his or her expense or even death. Those two books aren't the only ones out there. Soldiers have tactical training, yes, - they are also required to shoot at enemies whom they might or might not want to shoot in another circumstance. Remember, the enemies they are shooting at are soldiers, just like the soldiers themselves, and sometimes it is difficult to see pass the whole I shoot you and you shoot me for some rather difficult to understand financial or political reason.

    Remember soldiers and police shoot to protect others, others who are perfect strangers to them. They do it out of duty. I shoot to protect myself and my family.



  6. #26
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    May. 25, 2012
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    Many years ago, I was told by VA LEOs that if someone broke into a home while people were home, you could safely presume that they meant you bodily harm, and take whatever defensive actions necessary.

    The occasion was an investigation of a break in of my apartment, which occurred while my roommates and I slept.

    I don't think that's changed in the intervening years.

    What I found out in the aftermath of that break in was highly educational. The LEOs actively encouraged us to get guns and learn how to shoot; one sergeant memorably told me that if I shot someone coming through the window, and they fell back; to go outside and drag the body into the house and clean up the obvious physical evidence before calling 911.

    So I got a shotgun and learned how to shoot. And one day realized I was about 10X more likely to shoot my roommate's boyfriend coming up the stairs late at night than I was another intruder; shortly after that, I moved to the country and got a dog.

    I prefer a shotgun for home defense. I'm not a very good pistol shot, and practice doesn't seem to help enough to make an effective difference. I also think it takes aptitude and regular practice to be an effective pistol shot, especially in a panic situation.

    ETA: If my answer to the OP's question wasn't clear from the above, if I shoot a shotgun inside the house, I am, de facto, shooting to kill. There's no shooting to wound with a 12 gauge in an enclosed place. There's not much aiming either, which is why it's my preference.
    Last edited by McGurk; Apr. 2, 2013 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Clarification


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  7. #27
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    May. 5, 2008
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    Scranton, PA
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    Don't shoot at anything you don't intend to kill.
    If you have broken into my house (and by breaking in you are suggesting bodily harm) I will shoot you...and I will shoot to kill. I have a .357 mag and a heck of an aim.....I hope to never have to do that. We have very little if no crime in my area. I do believe it's because everyone owns a gun and criminals think twice. Heck, my hubby's grandpa had someone try to break into his house. He chased him out in his skivvies with his 12 gauge in tow. The sound of the pump of the gun had the intruder running for the hills.


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  8. #28
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    Dec. 29, 2012
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    La La Land
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    I am not a gun person. I am a blade person. I am also wanting a bow again. Had one as a kid. I can say I would use my blades with out any holding back if I had an intruder. My husband keeps hiding my machete for some reason. They are simply my weapon of choice. I have also had (have) dogs. When my daughter was a little girl I had a 3 dog pack of highly trained dobies for her. They went with her everywhere. There is nothing like peace of mind. I would definately have no qualms about protecting my family.



  9. #29
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    Sep. 24, 2004
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    Piedmont Triad, North Carolina
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    One of the gun safety rules is never point the gun at something you don't want killed or destroyed. Intruders don't fall into that category for me. There is no intentional wounding. That's only on TV.

    Shooting under stress is very hard to do well. Try target shooting under time pressure. It's an enlightening experience.

    A rant ... Some previous posters have mentioned "automatic" Likely there are no true automatic weapons involved... Just keep pulling the trigger till the threat stops.


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  10. #30
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Suffolk, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanne View Post
    Tip I learned from watching Southland:

    If you hit someone with 2 shots in the chest and they keeping coming at you, shoot for the head. They are wearing a vest.
    That's an advantage of a larger caliber handgun like a .45 which I carry. It you hit them, body armor or not, they are likely going down with the wind knocked out of them at least and broken ribs. Same with drug crazed assailants. My handgun is big and has less rounds but you get more stopping power with what you have.

    As for can you or can't you kill...the answer is to train and react...don't THINK. I am ex military and you train and train and train until it's not a conscious thing anymore to react correctly. One way a civilian can get that sort of training is visit local ranges, work with instructors and sometimes they have some very interesting equipment. I recently went to a local range that has a simulator like is used to train police and they have a large screen and you are part of a scenario. IE domestic violence and a woman pulls something out of her pocket..in one scenario, it's something harmless and in another, it's a gun, she shoots at you (very realistic) and you have to react. Your gun, a real 9 mm, is wired into a computer and after it's over you get a critique...ie you missed and where did your "virtual" bullet go. IN one case, a shooter put a round into the neighbor's house (BAD), in another, someone made a kill shot. It's not the same as a real situation but as close as you can get and incredibly good training for gun owners (esp CCP) to get.



  11. #31
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    Mar. 10, 2007
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    The gun I would grab is a 12 gauge-our bear gun. It makes a wicked noise when you pump one into the chamber. We have it loaded for grizzly bear always-slug/shot/slug/shot. It would probably destroy the room let alone the intruder.

    I would make dang sure that intruder meant me&mine bodily harm before I shot it. I wouldn't shoot a punk that was stealing my tv.

    And it's all academic anyway since I have a 5 dog alarm system that makes it intimidating to come on the property and impossible to be sneaky about it.



  12. #32
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGurk View Post

    I prefer a shotgun for home defense. I'm not a very good pistol shot, and practice doesn't seem to help enough to make an effective difference. I also think it takes aptitude and regular practice to be an effective pistol shot, especially in a panic situation.

    ETA: If my answer to the OP's question wasn't clear from the above, if I shoot a shotgun inside the house, I am, de facto, shooting to kill. There's no shooting to wound with a 12 gauge in an enclosed place. There's not much aiming either, which is why it's my preference.
    My handgun, the Taurus Judge (.45) also shoots a 410 shotgun round. Best of both worlds and while the scatter will not be as big as your shotgun, it's a lot more forgiving than a bullet for your aim being off a bit. Some shotguns are a lot for a woman to handle also and kick very badly.


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  13. #33
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    For you walk-the-walk self-defense types. Have you actually checked out state law or precedents that let you know if you might have to pay the price with some jail time?

    I ask because I agree with you: If I have a gun for self-defense, I should be prepared to shoot to kill. It seems a practical and moral obligation of owning a weapon that can kill.

    But I'd hate to find myself in jail because I failed to investigate that part of it.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  14. #34
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    Sep. 16, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndyrgal View Post
    Do I believe the average citizen, or most hunters need an automatic weapon? No. If I can kill something with one shot, so can you. Practice.
    Keep in mind that the "average citizen" CANNOT own an automatic weapon. They haven't been able to for a LONG time.
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


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  15. #35
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    Sep. 16, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbieS View Post
    But I agree that automatic weapons are not needed by the average person, especially in a protection or game hunting scenario. They are intimidating sure, but a lot heavier, and harder to handle (and therefore less reliable) when you need protection asap.
    1) see previous post. Automatic weapons are NOT available to the average citizen.

    2) where are you getting your information that they are heavier and harder to handle? Biden? LOL
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


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  16. #36
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    Oct. 16, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    For you walk-the-walk self-defense types. Have you actually checked out state law or precedents that let you know if you might have to pay the price with some jail time?

    I ask because I agree with you: If I have a gun for self-defense, I should be prepared to shoot to kill. It seems a practical and moral obligation of owning a weapon that can kill.

    But I'd hate to find myself in jail because I failed to investigate that part of it.
    Won't you hate it more if you or your family get raped, or get killed? To answer your question, Oklahoma allows self defense. Yeah, some sort of legal proceedings might be in order but that really plays no importance in my decision whether to shoot or not. Jail time is nothing comparing to the alternative.


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    Won't you hate it more if you or your family get raped, or get killed? To answer your question, Oklahoma allows self defense. Yeah, some sort of legal proceedings might be in order but that really plays no importance in my decision whether to shoot or not. Jail time is nothing comparing to the alternative.
    I don't have an opinion on which is worse- jail time or any of the exceedingly horrible or gruesome alternatives.

    I'm asking if the legal ramifications are researched by most people who are pro-self-defense-with-guns as part of their decision to do that.

    If you are willing to suffer any and all legal penalties for shooting to kill, that's your choice. I just wanted to know if people were making an informed decision here.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  18. #38
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    Oct. 13, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    For you walk-the-walk self-defense types. Have you actually checked out state law or precedents that let you know if you might have to pay the price with some jail time?

    I ask because I agree with you: If I have a gun for self-defense, I should be prepared to shoot to kill. It seems a practical and moral obligation of owning a weapon that can kill.

    But I'd hate to find myself in jail because I failed to investigate that part of it.
    I believe it is a state by state case. Where I live, if the intruder is in your house, and coming at you, you are by law allowed to use any force necessary to defend yourself. Though it does matter if they are facing you or not facing you, because not facing you can be a retreating person, no longer considered an immediate threat.

    I have a concealed carry permit, and my instructor said what has been said here - aim for the body mass. And empty the clip. His experience (he works with LEO and military) is that the adrenaline that your intruder has, or drugs in their system can sometimes make them initially immune to the affect of a bullet, particularly if you use a smaller caliber gun. Your adrenaline is going to negatively affect your aim. Other things he has also said - you will be arrested if there is a shooting. That does not necessarily mean that you will have to do anything other than make a statement, but you will be arrested at the scene. Your weapon will be confiscated as evidence for a period of time. So long as it is legal, you will get it back.



  19. #39
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    Mar. 10, 2007
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    As for my walk-the-walk perspective-if I'm willing to kill someone it means the stakes are high enough that I'm willing to deal with the consequences. If I ended up in jail b/c I shot someone that was going to harm me or my family that's fine, I'd do the time. If I would not shoot b/c of fear of punishment it would mean that I shouldn't be shooting in the first place, IMO.


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  20. #40
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    Oct. 13, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post

    I'm asking if the legal ramifications are researched by most people who are pro-self-defense-with-guns as part of their decision to do that.
    I can't speak to what anyone else has done - but if you have taken any sort of classes, either in self-defense shooting, or to acquire a CCW license, a quality instructor should cover the applicable state laws. Now, of course, not all instructors are equal.

    The average joe who just has a gun in the nightstand - maybe knows state law, maybe not.



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