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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    I am talking about both WNY *and* NJ.

    I have seen the 30ft lawn crawl that Bacardi is talking about, with moms and kids LITERALLY a 10 foot strip of lawn apart, which could easily be traversed well away from the road, in both places.

    I have also seen while living a block away from a housing project in Jersey City, kids who appeared to be 6ish and 11ish successfully crossing a Jersey City street from one sidewalk to the other to get to an icecream truck without parental assistance or supervision. Nobody died. It did not occur to me to worry that young children were taking their lives in their hands or to express "concern" to their parents (whereever they may have been). I just paid for the cone they got because I thought they were cute and polite.

    So I've observed street-navigation behavior (or lack thereof) in quite a few demographics.
    Yeah, actually, I drive from a "safe" and privileged suburb to get to the city where I work. I take the interstate. On my drive, and I pass through some pretty rough residential neighborhoods to get to my downtown office. There are overpasses that go over the interstate, and every morning, I see LEGIONS of kids ranging from ages 5-17 walking across those overpasses, presumably either walking to school or walking to a bus stop. They do NOT live in a safe neighborhood. No one is escorting them anywhere. We do NOT frequently hear of abductions of kids due to this sort of thing.

    Meanwhile, in my neighborhood, yes, some parents DO escort their kids all over the place. Although, thankfully, most of the parents seem willing to walk with the kids rather than drive them.



  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    I am talking about both WNY *and* NJ.

    I have seen the 30ft lawn crawl that Bacardi is talking about, with moms and kids LITERALLY a 10 foot strip of lawn apart, which could easily be traversed well away from the road, in both places.

    I have also seen while living a block away from a housing project in Jersey City, kids who appeared to be 6ish and 11ish successfully crossing a Jersey City street from one sidewalk to the other to get to an icecream truck without parental assistance or supervision. Nobody died. It did not occur to me to worry that young children were taking their lives in their hands or to express "concern" to their parents (whereever they may have been). I just paid for the cone they got because I thought they were cute and polite.

    So I've observed street-navigation behavior (or lack thereof) in quite a few demographics.

    that may be true - but it's been proven in studies, that one of the main reasons young unaccompanied children get hit by cars is due to spatial skills. Children under the age of nine tend to have difficulty recognizing things like how fast a vehicle is approaching and the path the vehicle will take.

    I grew up much like you -but with a difference. When I was five years old, riding my bike over to a little friends house 2 blocks over, I managed to get myself backed over by a pipe truck. Many 3rd degree burns later, surgery - etc - it wasn't pretty--

    obviously I lived. But my kids --- I guarded them against going through that or worse.

    Call me a coddler if you will - but I know better -from personal up-close experience with a vehicle at a young age. I think I would perhaps give your arguments more credence if you had kids. shrug. I dunno.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExJumper View Post
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.


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  3. #183
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    I would rather see parents driving their kids to and from the bus stop, even up and down the drive than to see a mob of kids unsupervised next to the road. Too easy for play to turn into a dart into the road in front of the car. Been there,see that and the kid survived. of course it didn't help the driver who stood on his brakes inches away from the kid. And no the driver was not speeding.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashGordon View Post
    I agree that the buses picking kids up at every single house is absurd. However I know it is par for the course with a lot of school districts-- due to liability I am sure.

    But I do entirely understand why some parents sit at the end of their drive with their kids in the car, waiting for the bus. Maybe they have a special needs kid. Maybe they have another small child that they don't want out in the cold, rain, whatever but they can't leave it in the house. Maybe the speed limit on their street is 55mph and they are worried about traffic. Maybe they can't see the driveway from their house and thus want to be sure kid makes it onto the bus and not into a pedophile's car. Seriously.

    I know the logistics that go into walking my 6 year old to and from school every day, with a 3 year old in tow. Seems like an easy task, no? It's not.

    Unfortunately there are too many "what ifs" nowadays so parents have to be hyper vigilant. And sometimes they are subject to the rules that school districts and transportation departments impose on them, for liability and safety's sake.
    And doesn't veer of to his bff's house to play video games
    I wasn't always a Smurf
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  5. #185
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    The reason some areas have the buses stop at every single driveway regardless of distance in between is due to liability issues.
    While many do find it extremely annoying to get stuck behind them (and apparently some find it extremely annoying to just watch it) please realize it's not the parents that determine the bus routes. I agree that it is super-annoying to get stuck behind buses on routes like that. Some areas do have drivers that will pull over and wave traffic around them.

    I do find it amusing that some of those on here with the strongest opinions on this do not have children. As a traffic concern, it can affect anyone. As a moral standing from an outside observer standpoint? As silly as when non-horse people tell you how to handle your horses. "I don't have children, but here's how you're raising yours all wrong..."

    As for the "I see other kids crossing streets and surviving"...
    If anybody ever gives me $#t about wearing the helmet, or says maybe I'll get those few extra points if I look traditional, or maybe the horse will sell better if it "looks easy," (which I freely and gladly admit NO ONE EVER HAS, apparently I have real friends...), I will ask them if they intend to tell the world, in the event something happens, the fact that they successfully convinced me not to wear it and start writing checks to cover the bills? Will they still be freely making those statements about tradition, and about how it was important for those last few extra points, over my hospital bed?
    Thousands of western riders from gaming to cutting to reining, etc go helmetless and you only hear of a few getting head injuries. So we should refuse to cater to the .002% that get catastrophic head injuries and stop coddling ourselves? Many of us grew up never wearing helmets and having fun racing each other bareback and jumping picnic tables for fun and showing jumpers and starting youngsters and riding the yahoos out of auctions purchases. We made it to adulthood without helmets. So nobody should wear helmets.
    And if any of you get injured or killed from not wearing a helmet, I will come explain how I told you that you didn't need a helmet because I never wore one as a kid and tons of western riders don't wear helmets.

    Now imagine the person telling you helmets are ridiculous coming from someone who's never ridden a horse.

    Same thing as stating you grew up riding your bike in traffic and walking miles to bus stops and nothing ever happened to you. So even if nobody saw obese people in these cars, they'll get that way for not doing what I did growing up and the kids will be scared of everything.
    So if they all changed to the way things were for some of you growing up (and the same for me) and their kids get hurt like in the helmet quote above...will those of you arguing this point go tell those parents how watching them or keeping them in a car would be have been silly anyway, so this kid died. It's not like all of them will. It's more traditional to leave small kids alone at the end of the drive. Too bad, so sad.

    Some parents value their kids as much as some of you value your heads. Let's not bash them for that or try to claim being labelled elitist. And just because you weren't hit by traffic doesn't mean all parents shouldn't ever worry about that either.

    Also doesn't matter if you've ridden the road countless times without getting hit. That isn't a guarantee that nobody will ever get hit, nor does it keep you safe for life. That's not to say never ride near the road, but also give parents the same options and if they don't choose the one you think you'd hypothetically do if you ever had children that you don't want...try not to belittle them for that.

    I'm all for picking on parents micromanaging their children, helicopter parents, parents who allow their kids to play hours of games in front of a TV and feed them crap. But if it's a safety issue...I'm all for keeping people safe. Especially children who cannot make the decisions to keep themselves safe. And as stated...plenty of children who had parents at the bus stop with them grew up to be independent and confident.

    There's plenty wrong with parenting these days...this issue is not one of them.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashGordon View Post
    Parents just can't win-- especially here on COTH.
    Yeah. Kids are a nuisance when they’re allowed to run free and explore the world, but parents are criticized for supervising them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    And unlike on the school bus, the horses would usually be secured so they can't beat on each other.
    They’d also have hay to munch on and can poop whenever the need arises. The wheels on the bus go round and round unless it’s an emergency.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #187
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    Feb. 18, 2012
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    I don't have the solution, Meupatdoes, but you just described my daily commute during the school year perfectly.

    When I rode the school bus 15-20 years ago, there was a stop in each neighborhood for the kids who lived in town; for those of us who lived out of town there was a stop for every 3-4 houses, which worked out to be a stop every mile or so. We were all responsible for getting to and from the bus on our own, regardless of temperature, precipitation, age, etc. Only the very small kids who didn't have an older sibling to escort them got a parent drop off/pick up, and even then the parents WALKED their kid to the stop and back.
    It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things.
    Theodore Roosevelt
    Wild Maple Designs - Equestrian inspired apparel.



  8. #188
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    Sep. 7, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    I think I have another explanation for the phenomenon. These parents are protecting their children from The Witches as described by Roald Dahl. Quite sensible, if you ask me
    I loved that book and the movie. Witches have square toes too.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #189
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    Allow me to submit a different perspective if I may.

    As a kid, I had to walk a MILE AND A HALF to and from the school bus stop on a dark dirt road.

    Yes, I was molested. Many more times than once, before I hit the age of 10.

    Sadly, that's a true story.

    So YES the constantly stopping school buses are a total pain in the @$$, but you are never going to hear one single WORD from childfree old me about it. I just thank God that there are parents who care enough about their kids to DO something to keep them safe. Some of us were not so fortunate.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


    6 members found this post helpful.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post

    I do find it amusing that some of those on here with the strongest opinions on this do not have children. As a traffic concern, it can affect anyone. As a moral standing from an outside observer standpoint? As silly as when non-horse people tell you how to handle your horses. "I don't have children, but here's how you're raising yours all wrong..."

    Some parents value their kids as much as some of you value your heads. Let's not bash them for that or try to claim being labelled elitist. And just because you weren't hit by traffic doesn't mean all parents shouldn't ever worry about that either.

    I'm all for picking on parents micromanaging their children, helicopter parents, parents who allow their kids to play hours of games in front of a TV and feed them crap. But if it's a safety issue...I'm all for keeping people safe. Especially children who cannot make the decisions to keep themselves safe. And as stated...plenty of children who had parents at the bus stop with them grew up to be independent and confident.

    There's plenty wrong with parenting these days...this issue is not one of them.
    Bears repeating... good post MB.

    You know, walk a mile... sometimes parents make decisions based on things like safety, concern, responsibility... not because we are neurotic, lazy, overbearing freaks.

    Horses... well you know they need custom saddles, professional training, chiro, massage, special feed... but kids, eh, who cares if one or two of them get picked off by a child molester or a tractor trailer. You can just make another one.

    And WA, that made my heart hurt. I am sorry.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #191
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    Jan. 14, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Allow me to submit a different perspective if I may.

    As a kid, I had to walk a MILE AND A HALF to and from the school bus stop on a dark dirt road.

    Yes, I was molested. Many more times than once, before I hit the age of 10.

    Sadly, that's a true story.
    I had a bus driver who used to let me ride the the end of the route and then would drive a little extra bit to drop me off at the town line so I could then walk to the stable (owned by a bona-fide pedophile). That bus driver came close several times to laying his hands on me, I am certain. I think he could sense that i was already damaged goods form previous experiences but not sure how much of a fight I would put up. Seriously.

    He used to corner be when the bus was stopped and tell me what he would like to do with his broom stick (this was not a euphemism, he had in his hand as he gave me his dirty leer.)

    The pull of the horse was so strong, I would literally go through hell to get there after school, despite the pedophile waiting at that end.

    Obviously the adults in my life were not paying attention (to put it mildly) but I do find it ironic that of all the years of walking to school or walking to the bus, the most traumatic experience was a pervert of a driver, not the risk of walking or waiting.

    And I felt for much of my growing up years that adults certainly seemed to have the right do do whatever they wanted with me. But that never included waiting for the bus.


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  12. #192
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    You cannot be too protective of your children. They can get lots of exercise in sports. You cannot replace or repair the damage that one child molester or killer or drunk driver does. And yes, there are drunk drivers out in the morning. i was hit by one at 7am on my way to court one morning.

    People say I am too protective of my dogs and cats and horses. Well I'd expect people to be as protective of their children as my parents were of me.

    If you would volunteer to help with victims in your local community, you would be unpleasantly surprised to find out how many victims there are, both children and adults. Most cases don't go to trial. Most victims do not report their crimes to police, but end up in counseling.

    As for bus drivers: My parents made me ride the school bus as they said it would toughen me up. Our bus drivers drove like they were in demolition derbies, and we counted the # of mailboxes wiped out by them. Now they have cameras on buses to keep students in line. Back back then, we were so scared of the way the drivers' wiped out mailboxes, we dared not move from our seats.


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  13. #193
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    Obviously no one is saying "eh, who cares if a kid gets picked off."

    However, the same people who are worried that a truck is going to randomly veer off a curb 20 feet down the driveway and take out their kid have no problems putting their kids on 1100 pound flight animals.

    Children are exponentially more likely to get injured in sports including riding than they are to get taken out in their own driveway by a driver mayhemming through town.

    And yet the short stirrup division exists.


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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    However, the same people who are worried that a truck is going to randomly veer off a curb 20 feet down the driveway and take out their kid have no problems putting their kids on 1100 pound flight animals.

    Children are exponentially more likely to get injured in sports including riding than they are to get taken out in their own driveway by a driver mayhemming through town.

    And yet the short stirrup division exists.
    It does, however, my kids don't ride. Because of that reason exactly. I have qualms about small kids on horses, too, believe it or not. ::shrug::

    Call me overprotective, I don't care really. There are worse things.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #195
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    We just had this conversation at work, but my complaint is about the kids who wait IN THE HOUSE until the bus gets there and then they come strolling out and take their time getting to the bus. I wait an average of five minutes per stop for this behavior. My kids were out and waiting for the bus...completely rude to make the bus driver wait. And why do the bus drivers tolerate this behavior???


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  16. #196
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    I can feel my anger rising. I need to vent!!!

    Up until my children were in grade 7, our School Board demanded that an adult be present, and readily visualized by the bus driver. As a shift worker the only option available to me was to assign the babysitter's home as the bus location. With my rotating shift it meant 50% of the delivery to and from school had to be done by family car. Even though the bus stopped at the end of our driveway to pick up the neighbour kids!! After driving to the school, it was required that I present at the office to sign the children into the school. I was not allowed to do so before the bus arrived, not even one minute early....."After all the school is not a babysitting service". At the end of the day present to sign out BEFORE the bell rang, (remember the babysitter thing) and then present at the door of the school to be seen by the teacher or classroom aid. Again, remember the bus would be stopping at the end of my driveway. 50% of school days for eleven years I followed the bus from the end of my driveway to the school, and then in the afternoon sat on the road behind the bus, unable to turn into my driveway as the neighbour's kids were off loading!! Oh yeah, and when on nightshift it meant going to bed after 9:30, and being up by 2:30.

    Then began the next nightmare. When the kids could eventually take the bus at the end of the driveway, they were being shipped out of the area for highschool. Morning pickups began at 06:30 for an 8:00 start. Unfortunately the bus was often late. A few minutes, no big deal, 30-45 minutes was common. We live in Ontario, standing in the wind in - 25C temperature for 30 minutes is not only not fun, it can cause frostbite. The constant rotation of drivers lead to ongoing issues with lateness. (Drivers were not familiar with the route.) They were often making wrong turns and getting lost. I found myself driving again. When I complained, the response was that my expectations were not realistic???? Funny, somehow I think the ability to attend class has some impact the student's ability to pass. Again, a few minutes no big deal, rarely, 30 minutes, no big deal. Routinely, BIG deal.

    End of story: We bought them cars.



  17. #197
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    Paintedpony, that would have driven me nuts too!

    Meup, I agree that there's a higher injury rate in sports, especially riding.
    But the bus routes are determined by the BOE, not the parents. So it's not the parents deciding they need to be at the bus stop too for the younger kids, it's the school system demanding it.
    And it's become a rule in so many places due to liability. Because if one child has something happen to them waiting for the bus, you can bet a parent is there ready, willing and able to sue the school system, town, etc.
    In some areas, instances, locations, ages, etc it seems silly. And annoying if you're stuck behind the bus. But it's most likely that way for the same reason my ride on mower came with the warning, "Do not trim trees or hedges with this" and my blow dryer has a big tag on it that says I shouldn't use it while I;m in the shower with the water running.
    But when it's a case of protecting children, well then I say err on the side of caution. Because for every helicopter parent you see spit polishing poopsie's face and patting their behind before they get on the bus, there's a child who's parents don't give two flying ____s and needs the BOE to set some rules to help keep them alive when their own parents don't care. So if I get stuck behind a bus due to a bunch of parents dragging things out, I'm not going to complain (too loudly) because that means the rule is in place and somewhere in that town there's a few children who won't be dumped off at an empty house at the age of 6 because they can't help that their parents suck.

    And yeah, that happens in even the nicest neighborhoods too.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #198
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    I tell you, until you have kids and try to use the system you can't imagine the way it's set up.

    For an example, my DD's elementary school bus came to a stop one mile from my house, no closer. A couple of times we put her on the bus when she was in Kindergarten, but we had to be there at the stop with her to put her on and get her, AND if IIRC we had to let the school know she would be there, so they could tell the driver that there would be another child getting on and off at that stop. In order for her to get to school on the bus she had to be there at 7 something. This was a total waste of time for us, she got up at 7 and DH drove her the three miles to school every day. By first or second grade the district finances were so tight that we had to PAY to ride the bus, the district had quite a few low income kids and they got vouchers, not us, so up till 7th grade we drove and after school we paid for the afterschool program run by the Y, and I picked her up. We regularly passed up the kids that had been let off by the bus, even though school had been out for an hour, because the bus took that long to get back to that stop, and they walked a half mile along a truly scary narrow road to get home. So if you lived on the route they stopped at your door, but if you didn't live right on the route they used collection points. Good God it was a mess.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
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  19. #199
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    For those of you who think "it" only happens in poor neighborhoods, or the ghetto, or in any place other than middle and upper class neighborhoods: "It" happens everywhere. The child molester/killer can be and sometimes is the businessman living down the road with his wife and kids. He (or she) can be the nice owner of a business, or the retired nice old man who is so nice to everyone. Disabuse yourself of the idea that rich and/or well educated people don't rape or rob or kill. They do.
    Plus they get drunk and/or use drugs and run over kids just as much as do the poor and uneducated.

    And yes, my parents put me, a child, on my horses. Because I'd been taught by my uncle and my riding instructor to ride well, and because my horses always took care of me. My uncles, 2 of them, picked out my first 2 horses. Bicycles were not considered protective, so I couldn't ride my bike down the road. I was not allowed to ride down one road without adults present as my parents considered the residents there dangerous. And those were white folks. My parents never kept me from riding through any other area. The only horse that was dangerous around here when I was growing up was a neighbor's horse that tried to rub his owner off on mailboxes. You can slip and fall in your house and hit your head. Riding horses as a child is not the same as being abducted by a predator on the way to or from school.



  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    For those of you who think "it" only happens in poor neighborhoods, or the ghetto, or in any place other than middle and upper class neighborhoods: "It" happens everywhere. The child molester/killer can be and sometimes is the businessman living down the road with his wife and kids. He (or she) can be the nice owner of a business, or the retired nice old man who is so nice to everyone. Disabuse yourself of the idea that rich and/or well educated people don't rape or rob or kill. They do.
    Plus they get drunk and/or use drugs and run over kids just as much as do the poor and uneducated.

    And yes, my parents put me, a child, on my horses. Because I'd been taught by my uncle and my riding instructor to ride well, and because my horses always took care of me. My uncles, 2 of them, picked out my first 2 horses. Bicycles were not considered protective, so I couldn't ride my bike down the road. I was not allowed to ride down one road without adults present as my parents considered the residents there dangerous. And those were white folks. My parents never kept me from riding through any other area. The only horse that was dangerous around here when I was growing up was a neighbor's horse that tried to rub his owner off on mailboxes. You can slip and fall in your house and hit your head. Riding horses as a child is not the same as being abducted by a predator on the way to or from school.
    The bolding is mine, and I'm not at all sure about your need to add this phrase? Because as I was reading your paragraph above, it never once occurred to me to consider the race of the "dangerous" residents.

    As to child molesters, the vast majority of child molestation occurs in the home by a family member, not by random strangers.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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