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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I'll play. With a 2 hour Coggins why should any horse end up for slaughter only if someone wants to buy him?

    What reason could a kill buyer have for refusing to make a larger profit by selling a horse to a live home vs. slaughter?
    KBs probably have had unpleasant experiences making an honest sale to people who think of them as despicable.
    There are plenty of people who will exercise their control over a situation by frustrating other's only because it is one of the few places they do have control.
    Human nature is that confrontation does not beget cooperation.

    Money be d--ned, in other words, they won't deal.



  2. #22
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    It would be impossible to enforce.

    Banning slaughter/transport to slaughter, or maybe brands that stipulate "Not slaughter eligible" (due to drugs or an owner buy back contract), would be the only ways to prevent a horse going to slaughter.

    I think that the person that mentioned that the KB didn't want anyone to know he sold this horse to slaughter was probably correct. Personally, I don't know how he can sleep at night, knowing there was a home for the horse, yet he had him killed. But this guy is a prefect example of the attitude of a lot of people in the slaughter industry. He stated that "everyone lies on the EIDs". So much for all of these ethical horse traders that have the horse's welfare in mind and would prefer that the nice horses got a home rather than get killed, like some of the pro slaughter side keep wanting to assert.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    KBs probably have had unpleasant experiences making an honest sale to people who think of them as despicable.
    There are plenty of people who will exercise their control over a situation by frustrating other's only because it is one of the few places they do have control.
    Human nature is that confrontation does not beget cooperation.

    Money be d--ned, in other words, they won't deal.
    Very true about confrontation and cooperation. I remember reading a study that when someone is waiting for your parking space, on average, it takes 7 seconds longer for you to back out.

    However, I think there's more to it in Backstreet Bully's particular situation...not wanting to get caught lying on the EID might be the reason in this situation.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  4. #24
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    You know, if it is presented as: You could profit from the sale of this horse.

    Rather than: You are a criminal committing a crime.

    There would more likely be a listening ear and a thought for agreement.

    It is always wisest to preface an about face with:

    hmm... you may be right about that, I sure couldn't remember detail on every horse that goes through... sometimes I thank goodness for paperwork with my memory...Let's go have look at the EID for this horse and see if there may be a work around for us? Gosh, I know how busy you are and it would be too bad if you missed the opportunity...
    What would you need if you could actually sell the horse? ... Lets go find out, ok?

    A mistake isn't a lie. Unless you make them take a stand on it.

    It is so easy to mess it up.
    And so hard to negotiate well.


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  5. #25
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    But what you're forgetting is...it was a lie.

    It's entirely possible someone else may have handled it in a different way with a different result...then again, it still could have ended up with the same result.

    What it comes down to though is they did lie, and they did kill that horse knowing his drug history.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    But what you're forgetting is...it was a lie.

    It's entirely possible someone else may have handled it in a different way with a different result...then again, it still could have ended up with the same result.

    What it comes down to though is they did lie, and they did kill that horse knowing his drug history.
    I thought the object was to save the horse?

    Calling someone on a lie won't help you save the horse.
    It isn't a points game or an I'm a better person than you game. Ignore or work around what doesn't move the process forward.



    The only win is saving the horse.



  7. #27
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    I am not forgetting.

    Calling someone on a lie doesn't enhance their willingness to deal and sell the horse.

    Saving the horse is the desired outcome.

    This isn't a game about who is lying and there are no points for 'I'm more ethical and a better person than you' tick offs.

    Calling it a mistake or oversight or memory fail gives them an out and enables the possibility of a sale.

    The sale is the goal.

    They always have the power to kill, your job is to give them many ways and means to pick that other choice they aren't thinking of.

    The sale of the horse is the only win; it has to be a win for everyone, liars included.


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  8. #28
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    Thank you for contributing all of your thoughts on this, every opinion is valid and appreciated.

    Must go now... until tomorrow.



  9. #29
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    what if the horse has a dangerous problem. Known flipper/ dangerous lashing out/HYPP/ other things that show up unexpectedly - yes a good owner would have the horse put down but we all know that doesn't happen all the time.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6


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  10. #30
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    The old adage - you get more flies with honey than with vinegar definitely applies.

    One of my concerns is that horses will now be put in the food chain. I believe this will cause more harm than good - it will be more costly to us as horse owners in the long run.
    I also would lobby for vets revisiting the captive bolt or what they used to use before we had all the lovely chemicals.
    It would make disposing of a horse body that much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    You know, if it is presented as: You could profit from the sale of this horse.

    Rather than: You are a criminal committing a crime.

    There would more likely be a listening ear and a thought for agreement.

    It is always wisest to preface an about face with:

    hmm... you may be right about that, I sure couldn't remember detail on every horse that goes through... sometimes I thank goodness for paperwork with my memory...Let's go have look at the EID for this horse and see if there may be a work around for us? Gosh, I know how busy you are and it would be too bad if you missed the opportunity...
    What would you need if you could actually sell the horse? ... Lets go find out, ok?

    A mistake isn't a lie. Unless you make them take a stand on it.

    It is so easy to mess it up.
    And so hard to negotiate well.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Very true about confrontation and cooperation. I remember reading a study that when someone is waiting for your parking space, on average, it takes 7 seconds longer for you to back out.

    However, I think there's more to it in Backstreet Bully's particular situation...not wanting to get caught lying on the EID might be the reason in this situation.
    Yes, it is about power some times, like when rescues make it difficult to adopt a horse, because they don't think you are good enough, when they really don't know anything about your horse management.

    Some people just have the upper hand and love to use it.
    Not saying that was the case here, there may have been other involved we don't know about.



  12. #32
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    No. There should not be such a requirement. What if the horse is a dangerous horse, and the owner knows it would be dangerous to pass it on? Someone who doesn't want to see it killed wants it, but the seller knows that someone will get hurt with the horse...this would be a valid reason not to sell it to a live home...


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Yes, it is about power some times, like when rescues make it difficult to adopt a horse, because they don't think you are good enough, when they really don't know anything about your horse management.

    Some people just have the upper hand and love to use it.
    Not saying that was the case here, there may have been other involved we don't know about.
    Bluey, confrontation and cooperation has nothing to do with the power of rescues to refuse a prospective adopter unless a potential adopter has been confrontational...which was not your point, was it?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    KBs probably have had unpleasant experiences making an honest sale to people who think of them as despicable.
    There are plenty of people who will exercise their control over a situation by frustrating other's only because it is one of the few places they do have control.
    Human nature is that confrontation does not beget cooperation.

    Money be d--ned, in other words, they won't deal.

    Absolutely. I believe that the old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face" applies here. And also "catching more flies with honey".

    It's unfortunate that these guys are lying on the paperwork and they'll continue to lie on the paperwork as long as they can. Now, from the Star story, the guy will know to yank off halters with nameplates so there goes the one chance for a few horses to be recognized.

    But really, if you crow about how you "rescued" this horse from the Eeeevil KB, how do you think that guy feels about it? And I'd like to remind everyone here that ladies in general have a horrible reputation for being hand wringing sobbing impractical fools among certain segments of the male population. They don't want to work with us and they don't want to have to listen to us get all gooey over what they consider to be livestock and also their customary way of life in the livestock industry.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I don't see how you can require it...however, I would hope the uproar over what happened to Backstreet Bully would make the next kill buyer and slaughter house think twice before repeating this mess.

    7arabians do you have any other interests other than advocating for killing horses?

    Try to keep from making personal attacks.
    In the name of fairness, do you also decry those that only come here to post about the anti slaughter drive?

    I think that this trader probably learned a lesson, don't mess with certain kinds of people in the horse world.
    We don't know if that one trader, like everyone I have known, is already "saving horses from slaughter", as many as he can find other uses for, unless there is some other, like a direct request the horse was sent to slaughter when he bought it.

    Yes, that is a guess, no one knows either way.



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReSomething View Post
    But really, if you crow about how you "rescued" this horse from the Eeeevil KB, how do you think that guy feels about it? And I'd like to remind everyone here that ladies in general have a horrible reputation for being hand wringing sobbing impractical fools among certain segments of the male population. They don't want to work with us and they don't want to have to listen to us get all gooey over what they consider to be livestock and also their customary way of life in the livestock industry.
    this is true - when you meet some of the fruitbats out there you can see the appeal of selling horses as livestock to professionals - the extra $100 bucks may not cover the agrievation of dealing with some people (I don't know the rescue woman in BB's story, she might be very professional but if the dealer has been harrassed by hysterical horse savers - once bitten, twice shy.)


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  17. #37
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    If a horse should not be owned or ridden, and an owner wants to be certain of that, they should euthanize them themselves, directly and under their own custody and control.
    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09



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  18. #38
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    Operating a slaughterhouse creates costs for the taxpayer. My taxes pay for inspectors, zoning, enforcement (in my dreamworld where there is in fact meaningful enforcement), etc. Licensing a slaughterhouse obligates resources that the SH owner doesn't pay for. You and I pay for those services and infrastructure. I'm sure a slaughterhouse puts a big strain on water supply and water processing, and many sure as hell pollute.

    In exchange for those not inconsiderable costs, I do not see it as unreasonable to require SH's to accept reasonable offers to get any specific animal out of the pipeline, particularly one which can be demonstrated to have not been supposed to wind up there. SH's get a lot from 'the system'. I think that in exchange for the not inconsiderable resources they are given access to, they have to agree not engage in the kind of behavior described in the other thread.

    Or, SH owners can build their own waste treatment plants, pay the entire costs of all the inspection infrastructure for their operation, etc.

    And the argument that such requirements are a terrible vitiation of property rights, or that interacting with the general public is something that SH's have some mysterious right to be exempted from - really? If someone shows up with a trailer and a fist full of cash, there should be no questions asked if that person offers the same price the SH was going to get for it. What does that really cost them?

    Stories like that of Backstreet Bully are part of why I would be happy to never see them operate on US soil again.
    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09



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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lori B View Post
    If a horse should not be owned or ridden, and an owner wants to be certain of that, they should euthanize them themselves, directly and under their own custody and control.
    That is fine if that is what that owner wants, but if not, do you really think we should have laws to make all do what you think every owner should do about that, when maybe they want to do other, perfectly legal and useful, like not wasting the mountain of produce SOME horses can be once dead?

    Requesting by law all euthanize horses some don't want passed on, for whatever reason, they think the horse is dangerous, don't want others to own it and worry where it goes, etc. is as tricky a law as demanding by law all such horses be slaughtered and used once more, not wasted as toxic trash, as so many are today.

    Any time someone decides they now can make laws to determine for all what everyone should do, according to them, we ought to be careful to think where that may go.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lori B View Post
    If a horse should not be owned or ridden, and an owner wants to be certain of that, they should euthanize them themselves, directly and under their own custody and control.
    Ah!

    But my question was if any potential buyer whose prospective use is 'live' offers a cash profit to a potential seller whose use is 'dead' should they be required to sell.


    In that instance the 'choosing to euth owner' would also be required to sell.



    Ownership IS about custody and control.

    When Ownership means the horse will be dead then work should focus on changing the ownership- either through negotiation and sale or discovery or a failed chain of sale negating the current ownership (that you WILL act on).

    Ethics and morals aren't effective in changing ownership of a commodity (horses can be bought, sold).


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