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  1. #1
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    Default SPINOFF: Should a 'live home' offer at a profit require a 'for kill' owner to sell?

    Thinking of the situations where a buyer's offer is refused where the owner of a horse destined for death would make a profit by selling to a 'live home' - and could legally do so.

    Should the seller be 'required' to sell?


    Asking as this seems to be an underlying sense of fairness to this situation.

    Thanks,


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  2. #2
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    "Required" by whom?

    There are no laws I'm aware of governing any equine transaction except the interstate commerce requirement of health papers.

    I think this question will remain completely hypothetical.

    The only scenario I can think of where the average profit-minded dealer wouldn't sell you the horse for more than the plant would pay was if the horse was shipped "kill-only" without a Coggins. Then, by law, he's required to deliver it only to the plant.


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  3. #3
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    Hmmm...

    As you are rather outspoken about horses being cared for in their declining years, rather than being moved on to other uses -for instance slaughter- I am curious what the response is to

    the owner who could sell at a profit but decides to kill, instead.

    ...which is currently absolutely legal.

    Why is this considered 'monstrous' by so many?

    Every seller reserves the right to no sale at their whim so why not a person whose ownership value of the horse is contingent on the death of the animal?


    Apparently I'm not stating this very well. Trying to understand the outrage over non-sales to those wanting to pull from a kill-buyer for example.


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  4. #4
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    I'll play. With a 2 hour Coggins why should any horse end up for slaughter only if someone wants to buy him?

    What reason could a kill buyer have for refusing to make a larger profit by selling a horse to a live home vs. slaughter?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  5. #5
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    I second the question, required by whom? There's no reason whatsoever for any seller to sell to any person if they don't want to, whether or not they make a profit. Just because you don't like where the horse is going does not mean you have a RIGHT to buy it, whether you're offering more or not.


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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I'll play. With a 2 hour Coggins why should any horse end up for slaughter only if someone wants to buy him?

    What reason could a kill buyer have for refusing to make a larger profit by selling a horse to a live home vs. slaughter?
    Excellent point; I'd forgotten about the new fast turnarounds. I've known a lot of dealers--most would JUMP at the chance to sell the horse for more $ to a "live" home. Another exception might be if the horse was known to be dangerous and liability was on his mind . . . or, possibly, if he'd promised the person he purchased the horse from that it would go "no farther." This is valid I think. I saw pretty near all these scenarios growing up and I think by and large they are a private matter between the parties involved.

    To go uber-dramatic for a minute, think of it in terms of the Terry Schiavo plug-pulling; husband says "end it," family says, "no, wait," 3rd parties get involved and the whole thing hits The Fan and is suddenly out of EVERY directly affected person's hands.

    OP: Whom do you see "interfering" with buyer & seller here? Under what circumstances, and for what purpose? Who arbitrates, and what happens to the horse if BOTH parties walk off with a shrug and don't want further involvement?



  7. #7
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    IF, IF, IF it seemed likely that slaughter were going to be re-authorized in the U.S., I think it would be great if SH's were required by law to sell any animal at cost to a non-SH buyer who showed up with cash in hand and the ability to do a 2 hour coggins. Exceptions for horses certified dangerous by their previous owner.

    Whatever else goes on, there is simply no excuse for SH's turning away someone who wants to pay their cost for a horse and give it a chance not to wind up in a can.

    And I don't care about "Mine, mine, mine, property, property, property, blah blah blah" I know it's incredibly difficult for many to believe this, but there are things in life that are more important than ownership and its inviolable sanctity.
    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09



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  8. #8
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    The fact that sometimes a horse is sold as meat only due to being deemed dangerous, and the seller is trying to prevent a 14yr old girl from getting killed trying to save a horse with a screw loose with loove and sunshine, or it has a known genetic disorder but its a pretty colour and the owner doesn't want it to end up as a broodmare, etc etc is not palatable to the sort that believe all horses can be saved with love and should be saved. Whether or not it is practical or even humane to save that horse doesn't seem to enter their thought process.


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  9. #9
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    If you want to be 100% certain of where a horse ends up, you either have to keep him, donate him to research or put him down yourself. Otherwise, it's a crap shoot. That goes for the dangerous ones as well.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  10. #10
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    I believe OP is talking about this thread:
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...-the-cracks!-(

    which details this story:
    http://www.thestar.com/news/investig...ood_chain.html

    of a TB gelding named Backstreet Bully who was sold to slaughter, and then slaughtered, in Quebec, despite the fact that at least two people tried to buy him, and also faxed the plant evidence that the horse had been administered drugs that made him unfit to enter the human food chain.

    So, IMHO, is a generic seller obligated to sell a horse rather than kill it? Well, no; there are horses that for whatever reason need to be dead. But did the plant in question act immorally and unethically, and I might add, stupidly? Why, yes.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  11. #11
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    LoriB,

    I'm guessing you don't live in the U.S., or your public school education did not include civics? What you suggest is unconstitutional in the U.S.
    First of all, there is no 'if' about it. Slaughter could well resume by the end of this month.
    Second, there are 100,000 sent to slaughter/year. I haven't heard an estimate of how many are growing old in a pen at one of the too numerous rescue groups. Obviously, rescues can't find homes for their horses and many are now being accused of cruelty themselves!
    Where in the world are you going to find what must need to be 200,000 buyers per year to show up with cash in hand? Heck, half of the horses changing hands now do so on payment terms! The economy is not really improving and more horses will head for slaughter once the plants open for business.


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  12. #12
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    Can of worms.

    Just hypothetically here, I think it's not a good practice for a businessman to refuse a higher price. He or she shouldn't let their likes or dislikes of a person or an organization get in the way - but they do.

    I also have some issues with horsemeat from a mixed pool of owners being sold for human consumption. The waiting periods are there for a reason, to allow potentiallly dangerous drugs to clear the system, and some drugs are specifically not to be used, and I don't believe there is a reliable cost effective way to test all animals. The system is too lax both in following the waiting periods and in disclosure of drugs used.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


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  13. #13
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    I don't think you can make something like this a legal absolute.

    What if the 'live' home is a collector's cesspool of starving horses? I have certainly seen horses pulled from slaughter auctions and kill pens and plunged into circumstances that may involve far longer and slower suffering with the same eventual end.

    Should all people then be required to sell any horse to the highest bidder, even if the home isn't up to their standards or the buyer is not a good match for the horse?

    Can we then prioritize show homes over pleasure riding homes over breeding homes over pasture pet homes, for example?


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  14. #14
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    I don't see how you can require it...however, I would hope the uproar over what happened to Backstreet Bully would make the next kill buyer and slaughter house think twice before repeating this mess.

    7arabians do you have any other interests other than advocating for killing horses?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    I second the question, required by whom? There's no reason whatsoever for any seller to sell to any person if they don't want to, whether or not they make a profit. Just because you don't like where the horse is going does not mean you have a RIGHT to buy it, whether you're offering more or not.
    Completely agree with the above. Aside from the impossibility of enforcing such a law, it seems completely inane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lori B View Post
    IF, IF, IF it seemed likely that slaughter were going to be re-authorized in the U.S., I think it would be great if SH's were required by law to sell any animal at cost to a non-SH buyer who showed up with cash in hand and the ability to do a 2 hour coggins. Exceptions for horses certified dangerous by their previous owner.

    Whatever else goes on, there is simply no excuse for SH's turning away someone who wants to pay their cost for a horse and give it a chance not to wind up in a can.
    Any time that a law can force someone to unwillingly part with something, there's going to be abuse of that law.

    Also, the bolded part, are you saying that slaughter houses should be forced to sell at cost just because someone claims that they are a 'live home'? Any business that is forced to sell 'at cost' is going to fail, and any legislation designed to cripple a business should not be passed.

    And I don't care about "Mine, mine, mine, property, property, property, blah blah blah" I know it's incredibly difficult for many to believe this, but there are things in life that are more important than ownership and its inviolable sanctity.
    There are plenty of other 'kill buyers' who do offer their horses for sale, at an increased price, to anyone who would want them. If the goal is to save a life, then there is plenty of opportunity to do so; however if the goal is to destroy someone's business or livelihood under the guise of saving a horse, then that's just as low as KBs posing as 'forever homes' to hoodwink people into giving them free horses.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7arabians View Post
    LoriB,

    I'm guessing you don't live in the U.S., or your public school education did not include civics? What you suggest is unconstitutional in the U.S.
    Thanks, that's what I thought as well.
    As part of a free-market economy, goods and services may be sold- or not- at the discretion of the owner.

    As an owner, any law requiring the sale of a horse when there is profit to be made makes me shudder. There are successful horse people who I would absolutely no-sale my horses to, even at a potential profit.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    however, I would hope the uproar over what happened to Backstreet Bully would make the next kill buyer and slaughter house think twice before repeating this mess.
    Not gonna happen, they'll just be more careful about it.

    In KY a lot of TB's are now going "underground" because tracks, owners, dealers, KB's etc have been harassed and threatened by individuals who want their 15 minutes of fame for one horse they got out of the pipeline.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I'll play. With a 2 hour Coggins why should any horse end up for slaughter only if someone wants to buy him?

    What reason could a kill buyer have for refusing to make a larger profit by selling a horse to a live home vs. slaughter?
    Comrade Laura, the only reason I can think of is the seller doesn't want anyone to know the horse was sold to a KB. Some people don't want anyone to discover their dirty little secret.

    LOVE your new sig line!!
    Last edited by jenm; Apr. 1, 2013 at 09:37 PM. Reason: fixed typo that I didn't catch on my phone browser
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I don't see how you can require it...however, I would hope the uproar over what happened to Backstreet Bully would make the next kill buyer and slaughter house think twice before repeating this mess.
    Right, next time they'll take off the nameplate halter first.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  19. #19
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    For those who may not be aware
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

    To become Effective November 1, 2013.



  20. #20
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    I have to admit that if a horse I bred was discovered in such a situation as the TB, I would be distressed if I was unable to purchase the horse.

    On the other hand I don't feel I have any right to force a sale.

    Which leaves either legal remedies, generous offers of cash, or negotiating skills; and speed is of the essence...

    I continually see none of the above in use; yet potential buyers expect possible sellers to fall in with their happy endings?

    If you do not carry a big stick, you had better have a very good enticement for change.



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