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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    Then how do you explain helicopter parents?
    Unfortunately, the most common type of helicopter parent is the one that rushes in to bash the teacher when little Susie gets a less than stellar grade.
    Doesn't ask what parent and child might do to help Susie learn the material--it must be the teacher's fault that perfect Susie didn't get an A.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Unfortunately, the most common type of helicopter parent is the one that rushes in to bash the teacher when little Susie gets a less than stellar grade.
    Doesn't ask what parent and child might do to help Susie learn the material--it must be the teacher's fault that perfect Susie didn't get an A.
    I see a helicopter parent as one who constantly hovers over their child and tries to run interference for them for everything. A parent who never wants their child to experience failure or hardship or any kind of problem. I have a friend and co-worker who is a wonderful, nurturing person but she is the poster child for helicopter parenting, IMHO. Her daughter is almost 13 and she still lays out her clothes for her each morning, she goes in an gently wakes her up and makes sure she's out of bed and on her way to getting ready, she makes her breakfast. I haven't done any of that since my child was in kindergarten. I go in, flip on the light, tell her to get up and get going then I go feed or get ready myself. She picks out her own clothes and has since kindergarten, she fixes her own cereal or toast. My friend doesn't want her daughter exposed to any of the uglier things in life. If her child has a conflict, she's in the middle of it, someone calls her kid a name at school, my friend is calling her daughter's teacher about it. She doesn't want her exposed to anything outside a surburban, middle class lifestyle. I expect my kid to work most things out by herself and she gets exposed to a lot of things outside our lifestyle. That doesn't mean I don't step in when needs be and that I don't point out problems and pitfalls with certain lifestyles but she has to learn ot make her own decisions and live with the consequences of those decisions.


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by hastyreply View Post
    My sister is the special ed teacher is a small ruralish district. She has both jr high and high school students. Most are learning disabled due to their social and economic backgrounds. Next year she's getting a "real" sp ed student. A low functioning downs student. The other teachers are "scared" of this child. She doesn't speak but can communicate and is toilet trained (a big plus to my sister). Theoretically she should go to life skills at a neighboring school district. Parents don't want her to go there because, unspoken, there are many more minorities at this school and in this program. There has even been talk about inclusion classes with this child. She can make a large X on a paper is all the writing skills she has. Parents think the district should do whatever it takes to meet her needs in district. This is a poor cash strapped district. There isn't much chance of them being able to afford to meet her needs. My sister hopes to keep the child with her in her class (the elementary principal refuses to let the aide who has been with her the past 5 years to move up with her, even on a temporary bases). Hopefully the parents' eyes will be opened that really the best place for her is in an established life skills class. Child was an only until recently and now has two preschool syblings so parent's views will be changing. The chances of them hiring another aide for her are slim and even if they did, they are notorious for pulling the aides to cover as subs else where in the school.
    My mother is an advocate for the ARC. The district is REQUIRED to provide an aide if the kid's IEP thinks it is necessary. If they refuse to provide one, it can be discussed in court with the help of disability rights.. The school is also required to give the child an education. NO EXCLUSIONS.



  4. #104
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    **decided to delete my p*ssy rant**
    Last edited by OneGrayPony; Apr. 16, 2013 at 03:23 PM. Reason: **decided to delete my p*ssy rant**


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  5. #105
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    [QUOTE=OneGrayPony;6942215] Full disclosure:
    I am a parent of three children (all now pre-teens/teens) who lives in an area with 99% helicopter parents. Your mileage may vary if you live and/or teach in a different area.

    Second disclosure: This thread really p*sses me off.

    No, I do not expect you to raise my child.

    I also hope you would understand that my very well-behaved-at-home child can and may behave TOTALLY DIFFERENTLY in a school setting. Just like a horse who does not necessarily do well in a group, my very well behaved children, who people compliment when we go out to eat etc. can be easily overstimulated in a classroom of over 30 kids or on a bus where the ground rules are not clearly set out.

    I can't set that up as a training opportunity so that I can discipline him.

    And no, I'm not sure what to do when he behaves that way in the classroom because he does NOT behave that way at home and I have most definitely set boundaries for behavior. MOST DEFINITELY.

    No, I will not check every single problem on his homework for accuracy. Nor will I be sure that my children carry every single piece of paper with them every single day. This is not "laziness" or "lack of caring", this is a part of helping them to learn the responsibility that it takes to do things on their own. They will get one or two reminders, and that's it. If that means they need to miss a field trip, so be it. They need to learn the consequences of that behavior. You do realize that the ones that have all of the bits and pieces? Their parents are packing their backpacks for them.

    If I'm constantly there to be sure they don't make a mistake, how will they ever learn as an adult without reminders? If Mom constantly bails them out, how will they ever learn that if they don't bring the saxophone to school that they WILL be kicked out of the band and that will suck (if they really wanted to play the saxophone). Because those are things that they need to learn for LIFE.

    To the teacher who woefully proclaimed "your 13 year old just doesn't seem to care about social studies" (after I found out that everything she was teaching was rote memorization dates and names - and this is a kid who is so curious about current events that he stays up late and reads about politics and...no, you're right, he totally doesn't care about 8th grade social studies)...are you freaking kidding me? What about the one that said "What he needs is a star chart to remember his homework"...right...okay, have you ever even talked to a 13 year old?

    What about the huge multi-step projects that definitely require a parent's involvement? Is this MY education we're talking about? Or his? Should I really be sewing at 11 pm or calling and renting a whizbang to bring into the classroom, like the other parents that I know?

    Listen, I read to my children every night when they were little. And I taught them basic math. And when we all get home at night, after chores are done, we talk about current events, and physics, and philosophy, and the hard things they have to deal with when their classmates are talking about suicide and drugs and things like this.

    Yea, no, I'm not going to stop that conversation to build them a diorama out of balsa wood so that you can hang it in the hallway. Because you know the ones you get? Parents made those. Hope you enjoy giving a 40 year old an A, and the kid with the one that looks like crap or is missing pieces? That's the one that deserves it, because that's the only one that was done by the kid.

    I appreciate the good teachers that my children have had along the way - I really do. Teachers who communicate with me, and who understand that while my sons' education is important, their education as a human being is way more important than remembering who did what at Gettysburg. My youngest has an awesome teacher right now who realizes that his brain doesn't work when he is immobile. Like literally DOES NOT WORK - stalls out. She also realizes that he's incredibly global...that this facts and figures thing isn't going to work for him and that he's going to have to figure out some other coping skills in order to go forward.

    She's one of very few.

    My other frustration is that I work with a lot of graduates of this current line of education system. Mommy or the boss has to be right there otherwise they don't know what to do. Literally, I've had people who expect to be paid 80k a year, who cannot remember to finish a project, or cannot take notes and remember the details.

    But man, they got straight As in school.

    I'm sorry, this really trips my trigger.

    Do NOT assume that it's a lack of parental involvement that makes a kid difficult. Do NOT assume that it's "not enough discipline" that makes a kid act out (it's often the opposite).

    And let me just tell you, if you think it's rough as a teacher? You at least get to walk away from it at some point.

    Imagine for a minute being a parent. Because no matter what, it's always your fault. Everything. From the time that child is born to the time you (or they) die, every single bad thing that ever happens to/from/by whatever is your fault. And people will not hesitate to tell you that. And EVERYONE is an expert. Everyone knows better how to raise your child than you do. They've made those things a law. You're damned no matter what you do or don't do.

    Listen, if you're a teacher, I have respect for you. Just remember that I live with these kids the other 16 hours of the day. And I don't get paid at all. /[QUOTE]

    a lot of this REALLY jumped out at me as a teacher. while on one hand i sympathize with everything you've said about the helicopter parents and absolutely agree about the balsa wood projects and the rest. HOWEVER. those last two paragraphs really annoy me. of COURSE you're responsible for your child, to a large extent. who ELSE would be? YOU chose to bring him into the world. why SHOULD you get paid for living with your kids 16 hours a day? why would you have them if you didn't want to do that?
    My mare wonders about all this fuss about birth control when she's only seen a handful of testicles in her entire life. Living with an intact male of my species, I feel differently! WAYSIDE


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  6. #106
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    Sorry. I realized that I was pissy and therefore it came out as a rant. Which is why I deleted it.

    I wasn't saying that anyone else should be responsible. You're missing the point.

    I am saying that teachers have said things to me as if I don't live with the kid. The not getting paid was tongue in cheek.

    Here's the thing though - out of all of the people and things - a parent has such little influence.

    Are you a parent? People have thought I was exaggerating until they had a kid.



  7. #107
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    One more thought. Children are not blank slates with no personality. They come with an inborn personality that you have to work with. Keep in mind, it's kind of a green horse green rider scenario, since none of us have children before we have them.

    Some children are easy. I have one of these. The middle one.

    Some are really fricken hard. I have two of these. Eldest and the youngest.

    The same techniques that totally worked on the middle one? Not so much the eldest and the youngest. And we tried so many things and so many experts and to be continuously criticized by people who haven't one iota of what we were going through? That makes me irate.

    Just because you're a stellar parent does not mean that your kid turns out beautifully. You can do everything "right" and have a kid that does drugs or drops out. It is not as easy as the parenting books make it sound. Really, it's not.

    And I think our population would die out if people knew how hard it really was.
    Last edited by OneGrayPony; Apr. 17, 2013 at 10:24 AM. Reason: typing on my phone means really bad grammar - yikes!


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  8. #108
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    Well said, OneGrayPony. A LOT of who we are is genetic. They did a study on twins separated at birth raised in very different households. There were VERY little difference in how they turned out, good, bad, or whatever.

    I have a friend who adopted two kids with her husband, who was also a teacher, and they both had major training and experience in violent, very difficult kids. The kids were adopted at 6 months and 3. You would think they were terrible parents because both kids were and are major problems. No amount of influence could change much of what they were going to be.

    That said, I keep trying. My goal is to brainwash every kid in my class that they can and will do it, and can be a good contributing member of society. I know I have to let some of it go. I had a girl show up for school for the first time this year last week. She's managed to come 4 days this year now. I don't think I can have much influence.



  9. #109
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    Beentheredonethat, I learned about that study in a psych class AFTER I had kids and was totally blown away!

    Good teachers CAN make a difference, just like good parents can. Or at least screw them up less You sound like a good teacher.

    That child who hasn't come to school - isn't the district doing anything about it?

    I got taken to court when my 17 year old son kept cutting classes (school was downtown...I drove him TO the school, put tracking on his phone...punishments, lack of privileges, whatever...I could not keep him in that school - luckily the judge realized that I was trying really really hard and only punished him...which of course had zero net effect). The reason he cut, btw, was the strange and draconian rules at the school. Very smart child, who realized that the school had far bigger issues than the hat rule, that they were making a huge deal out of. What a battle that was (and even though he dropped out, he is now getting his GED and going to college...thank god).

    The really good teacher that my youngest has right now? I asked him what he liked about her. He said she was fair, like me, and didn't coddle, but wasn't harsh either. She told it "like it was". But the difference that I see? Is that this teacher really likes the kids, and invests in their long term success. She doesn't believe that the kids have to fit into a mold to be "right" and encourages them all to find methods that work for them. Really, I'd love to bottle her



  10. #110
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    of course, people are born with their base personalities and sometimes there's nothing anyone can do to "fix" or change them. but that's not the teacher's responsibility either. i do the best i can with some really tough circumstances that my kids are coming from and the parents CONSTANTLY expect the school to do everything for their kids! i'm just sick of being constantly blamed for all the problems in society (not that i'm saying anyone here was blaming teachers). it just seems to be this pervasive idea in society that teachers have more control/power than parents, and i just do not think that's the case.
    My mare wonders about all this fuss about birth control when she's only seen a handful of testicles in her entire life. Living with an intact male of my species, I feel differently! WAYSIDE



  11. #111
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    Nah, I don't believe you have any more control of it either!

    I'll join you in being sick of being blamed for it all

    I honestly think that a lot of it is this overarching lack of understanding that SSH in our society. Sometimes kids get abducted, sometimes kids do drugs, sometimes kids get violent...it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the parents, the teachers, the video games blah blah blah. The answers are so much more complex than that. Sometimes Sh*t just happens and as much as we all try to prevent and work together and so on and so forth...we can't fix them all.

    I know that sounds defeatist. I think I've just been a parent for far too long



  12. #112
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    starhorse said;
    I don't want to get into this conversation except to say that global warming IS A FACT. Have we determined that it is caused by humans? Not definitely. Is the globe getting warmer? Yes. Is it in a natural pattern? Perhaps.


    The planet warms every spring and summer but cools every fall and winter, if that's what you mean. But the science of overall "global warming" is not established fact, by any real analysis. Yet it continues to be taught as fact in most public schools.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...93F0AJ20130416
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  13. #113
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    The parents CONSTANTLY expect the school to do everything for their kids!
    As a parent, I'd actually like schools to do less for my kids and do it better.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  14. #114
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    onegrey--The girl that has been to school, what 10 days now in two years--I think the the school/the police/the courts have so few resources and her mother is such a nutty bitch/hooker/drug user/whatever (so says the counselor when she hangs up on them every time) it just took TWO years to get the police in to threaten her enough to care about not being dragged to jail.

    Again, where do we put our resources?

    I just had a long talk with an AP about this and, as a union rep, am trying to force action through the union by blabbing my big mouth about WHERE we put our resources.

    One of the issues I have is the HUGE focus on placating the 1% nutty parents who constantly threaten to sue over, whatever. I can state SO many ridiculous cases of waste of time where huge amount of time and effort are spent into placating little Booboo and investigating if the teacher looked at him mean, or said he's stupid, or corrected him when he said "um" so he would speak more correctly. Oh yeah.

    The admin. in our district spending HUGE amounts of time focusing on the tone of voice so the little babies don't get upset and attacking teachers for that, but not that, oh, teachers that are passing on kids with good grades that can't read or write. Teachers are giving %50 for missing work, so a kid can do %10 and pass. What is more important? Yes, we want little BooBoo to not feel "scared" of the teacher's tone of voice, but I bet little BooBoo won't feel scared if he's actually reading and writing at grade level. Yeah. I'd like the focus to be on why so many kids are getting passing grades, but every indicator says they can't read or write. THAT is going to harm them.

    Yep. I'd like schools to do a better job on teaching and accurately assessing, not on how little BooBoo feels.


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  15. #115
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    onegrey--The girl that has been to school, what 10 days now in two years--I think the the school/the police/the courts have so few resources and her mother is such a nutty bitch/hooker/drug user/whatever (so says the counselor when she hangs up on them every time) it just took TWO years to get the police in to threaten her enough to care about not being dragged to jail.
    That is crazy! I got a letter, then a court notice. 'Course, I cared about being taken to court! (Man, was I frustrated!!) that sounds like a poor administration!

    or said he's stupid
    Well this, I have an issue with (personally), but I'm not a fan of suing regardless. I swear the issue is litigation.

    I do feel for you in the job that you have to do. Definitely not an easy one. That 1% of jerk parents shouldn't hold us all hostage though, and yet, that's the way it seems it works for everything. Squeaky wheels!



  16. #116
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    I don't necessarily think not getting the truant kids is poor administration, but the overwhelming number of kids we have that don't come to school and the lack of resources.

    I'm sure there are teachers that have called kids stupid. What I meant was the KIDS said that, and pretty much all of the time it's something like "that was a stupid thing to do." But, all that matters is BooBoo heard the word "stupid" and didn't understand the context, and usually BooBoo isn't doing any work anyway or cheated and has a crazy parent, so if BooBoo goes home and says that, all the blame goes away. BAD thing to teach a kid. Our kids have learned this really well.

    Last year one (failing, always in trouble kid) heard "go back to India" from a teacher, instead of "are you still on vacation in India" when he wasn't paying attention (after having gone away on independent study for a month) and that caused a HUGE "investigation" and got the teacher "in trouble" without ever actually asking the teacher. So, all the kids (Indian kids) started saying that. It didn't work if you "told" the wrong person. I told a kid he couldn't come to the party if he he had all F's from not doing the work, so he went to a counselor and told her I had said "go back to India" to him to "get" me. Of course she called me, I explained, we laughed, and she told him to do his work. But, if he had gone to someone else, HUGE investigation. Kids are still trying the "he/she told me to go back to India" phrase when they're in trouble.

    When I told that story at the union meeting, jaws were dropping, and I heard more stories of how this is going on. I'm becoming the squeaky wheel for higher standards, not this crap.



  17. #117
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    I don't necessarily think not getting the truant kids is poor administration, but the overwhelming number of kids we have that don't come to school and the lack of resources.
    Really? That's weird. Must be an area thing. Again, it was pretty simple where I am. If, however, the parent ignores the court papers...

    But, all that matters is BooBoo heard the word "stupid" and didn't understand the context, and usually BooBoo isn't doing any work anyway or cheated and has a crazy parent, so if BooBoo goes home and says that, all the blame goes away. BAD thing to teach a kid. Our kids have learned this really well.
    Ah sorry! Totally misunderstood. Well, the one question I do have is how is the parent supposed to know? Kids are highly manipulative (because that's how kids are) and play a system pretty quick if they can figure it out! Parents can definitely be naïve, but it is so hard to determine when a kid is telling the truth vs not. Though again, I'm not the litigious sort, so generally, I will talk to the teacher and try to work it out/ figure it out first.

    That being said, I see from other threads that we as a society are losing our ability to talk to each other in general and are relying on systems and law enforcement etc to settle things. Honestly I think that's a factor of our society being more and more depersonalized.

    I also think the new(er) emphasis on testing sucks. It puts too much pressure on everyone!

    I do think that we should be (and are) partners in this process. That means I do expect to be able to have an open dialogue back and forth. You wouldn't believe some of the emails I have received from teachers, with zero in the way of actual communication. I believe that part of it is a lack of understanding that I don't have their context (eg, an email mid-communication with my son that the teacher has suddenly cc'd me on where I know nothing about the work, or what either of them were talking about) but also part of it is this home/school dichotomy. The child is not necessarily the same at home as they are at school.



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    I don't know if it's because I live in a much more populated, problematic area, or, as you've said, it's just a matter of not thinking of ignoring court papers. I'm in middle school and just switched from 7th to 8th. I used to never notice this in 7th, but in 8th I've got a bunch of kids ready to drop out already. I probably have 6 kids (of 95) that I'm lucky to see 1 or 2 days a week. I have about 10 that show up late 4 out of 5 days a week. Nobody's getting on them. I didn't see a kid for a month, and it wasn't until I mentioned that to the alternative center person, that she mentioned it to the office, and they called home. Mom left for work early, and he slept in and missed 1st and 2nd period every day. I just figured he dropped out to sell drugs. (Nice kid, not very smart, caught a couple of times.)

    The issue is, kids ARE manipulative and everyone knows it. So, us all being adults, when they say something like that, you ask them in the right way to get the REAL story. I can get the real story out of any kid with the right questioning. Or, you actually ask the teacher. That solves SO many problems. It's the leaving messages on the admins. phone or going to them that is causing these issues. It's like a game of telephone where the drama and message changes. It's amazing how the truth comes out when you actually talk face to face. My due process "rule" I would like to have be the way things are is, "unless it's criminal, talk to the teacher." That goes for parents, too. I can't even imagine a teacher going after a parent here--they're pretty paranoid.

    You're right, though, in that it is a lack of communication and basic manners in how you do that. I mean, I wouldn't call child protective services if the kids said "my dad is going to kill me." I'd actually figure out what the real issue is.

    The testing thing has been going on for a long time. It's not necessarily something I care about. I don't focus on the test because I find if I teach kids how to think and be responsible for their own education, they do OK.


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    oops



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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    Oh jeese. You're never going to let me go to the barn are you? This is SUCH a hot button question for me. I was going to write it.

    AS a teacher of 15 years, a lot of this is happening. We have great parents, but we also have so many kids in such bad situations that if we don't take care of these kids, we are allowing them to be raised to be leeches on society.

    I've had unending kids transferring into my class because they're being pulled out of the other middle school because it is out of control. These kids show up 2, maybe 3 days a week and do nothing. Mostly I try to keep them in my class so they don't vandalize the school or sell drugs. I have one girl who had something "unimaginable" to deal with (counselor's words) that was out again because she told me someone threatened to kill her and come and shoot up the school.

    I used to have 1 or 2 kids that did nothing. Now I have 10 to 15. These kids I tell about 40 to 50 times (in about 1 1 2/ hours) to stop staring at the wall, stop chewing on your fingers, stop drawing on your hands, stop picking at the paper and DO something that is very easy to do and all you have to do. Some parents have given up on them. Some parents are psychotic and wonder why their child isn't getting a passing grade like he is in every other class (even though he/she is illiterate) because every other teacher has passed him on and doesn't want to deal with it.

    Sigh. Yeah. I told this to my principal when he said out job is to be the parent figure at school. I said no way, my JOB is to TEACH, including being honest with them about abilities, getting after them for not doing work or behaving, and not to make them feel happy and comfortable sitting there doing nothing and being a jackass.
    I didn't bother to read past this first post. BTDT pretty much said it all. I'll just "ditto" her words.

    I taught 8th grade reading (to kids who came in on about a 2nd - 3rd grade reading level 95% of the time) for five years before gratefully retiring to be a stay at home mom. I remember the first parent phone call I made my first year. Told dad that his son was kicking and throwing things at other kids nonstop in class and completely nonresponsive when I addressed him. Dad said, "What do you want me to do about it?" Seriously... I was 23 and had not yet reproduced... that part wasn't really my area of expertise. You'd think by the time your kid is 14 years old, you'd have developed some idea of how to scare the crap out of them. But no. Last week, that kid served me some nasty barbq at a run down gas station diner. Good for him-- he's still alive and isn't in jail. That makes him one of the local success stories! Man, that first year was really trial by fire... I had quite a few disappear for weeks at a time, only to find out they were in jail (some because I had the balls to fill out police reports on the things they did in class, which the administration didn't take too kindly to). Several from that year are dead, and several went to big boy prison the summer after they left me. Probably 40% or more of that class dropped out before graduating. Some that were the worst in class managed to pull themselves up and have decent table-waiting jobs now.

    I don't know if the next few years' kids were actually any better, or if I was just numb afetr the first year.

    That being said, I do live in a small town that is fairly dependent on the prison system. We have several big state prisons in the area, and many families move from town to town following whichever parent is in jail. Probably 50% of my kids were being raised by grandparents. 10% of my girls had reproduced by the end of the school year, some with their second kid. The great-grandparents were then raising those kids. I gave up on calling parents, because most parents wouldn't answer phone calls. The worst kids didn't have working phone numbers listed for their parents... I undertsand that many parents don't have phones... but when Momma lists random local businesses as her personal phone number on enrollment forms, it's a pretty good warning that her kid is up to no good and she does NOT want to be bothered about it. Then there were the parents that were involved, but not on my side at all... you know, the ones that march in during class (security? what security?) and cuss me out in front of kids... or the ones that demand to see me in the principal's office, then the weenie principal hauls butt out of there while Big Momma pins me behind the desk because Johnny's failing grade meant he missed a basketball game... doesn't really care that Johnny's failing grade meands he CAN'T READ... whatever...

    Of course, it's more than just parents. There's idiot administrators with bleeding hearts and no brains. Loved the wretched woman my last 1.5 years (the 5th principal I worked under in a 4 year period) who told me on my very last day (after refusing to send home a kid that had verbally threatened me with bodily harm when I was heavily pregnant) that "the reason kids always repsond to you so badly is because you speak too properly. People around here don't talk like that." Yeah... I taught English, but whatever.... I guess actually speaking it is offensive. Then there's just really big nasty systemic problems with testing that I can't make myself even think about at the moment. A lot of the fire is gone out of me since I've been out of the system for two years. I try not to think through the problems with the school system too much... at least not for another 4 years... then I'll have to figure out where to send my own kid. Switzerland is looking better every day. Sigh. I actually liked to teach on the few ocassions I actually got ot do it...
    *#~*#~*#~*#~*
    Proud Momma of *Capital Kiss* and Bottle Rocket!


    1 members found this post helpful.

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