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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    Yeah,

    Keep asking for benefits and let me know how that is working for you...
    And you don't think you're being exploited?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    And you don't think you're being exploited?
    No way, no how. I think those that consider themselves "exploited" are those that don't educate themselves. I am smart, educated, and have worked in blue-collar jobs. Those that are "exploited" choose to ignore what they observe in front of their face.
    You that consider yourselves "exploited" can continue having pity parties, whining 'woe is me'.... The solution is to vote idiots out of office and vote in those you know will make a change. Simple.
    "When a president can pick and choose which laws to follow and which to ignore, he is no longer a president. " Ted Cruz



  3. #83
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    Right. And who will make a change? Where did your vote go?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    Keep asking for benefits and let me know how that is working for you...
    Quite well, actually. I belong to a labor union, so my work contracts come with benefits, protections, and guarantees.

    Also, could you please answer my question about your students and which candidates -- if not 'liberals' (and seriously, true liberals are only on the ballot in a handful of places) -- your students should be voting for to promote a better working life for Americans?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Workers in America work more hours, have less vacation, no guaranteed health care, no job protection without civil service or a union, and often have their hours manipulated so they do not even get overtime. I happen to be a very well educated professional, and still had to suffer from both sexual harassment and wage inequality, as well as lack of equal opportunity from the private sector. Much of the latter has changed for women who weren't in the first wave of professional school graduates. And I was privileged.

    If a full time job or a group of part time jobs that equal full time work does not pay enough to lift the hard working sob who is in that situation out of poverty and give him/her health care and a pension or equivalent earnings, then the employers ARE exploiting their workers.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    No way, no how. I think those that consider themselves "exploited" are those that don't educate themselves. I am smart, educated, and have worked in blue-collar jobs. Those that are "exploited" choose to ignore what they observe in front of their face.
    You that consider yourselves "exploited" can continue having pity parties, whining 'woe is me'.... The solution is to vote idiots out of office and vote in those you know will make a change. Simple.
    What are they ignoring? What change do you want? Who will create it?

    And how do you deal with an economy that fundamentally depends on poverty level labour on a mass scale? Poverty is not a character flaw, it is an economic condition, and its existence is *necessary* for America's economy to function in its current state. It is absolutely disingenuous to talk about ending poverty via education and magical bootstraps and various other mechanisms if we do not talk about the basics of our economic structures and labour practices, structures and practices that would have to radically change in order for poverty to be eliminated to any meaningful extent. What type of economy can support itself without poverty and how do we create it? Moreover, what type of economy can support itself with good labour conditions and a high quality of life for everyone? There are some very, very good models to look at.



  7. #87
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    May. 12, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Well, how well did capitalism work for Wall Street in 2008 ? "Double trouble" how soon we forget...
    Yeah, right.

    What we've been subjected to for the past four decades has been an increasingly bastardized version of Capitalism distorted and manipulated by bureaucrats and politicians who lack the financial acumen to even make a go of a lemonade stand in downtown Phoenix on an August afternoon.

    If you want an insider's first hand look at the economic collapse and what brought it on, read John A. Allison's "The Financial Crisis and The Free Market Cure". It exposes many factors that you won't hear of from the so-called mainstream media. It was on The Wall Street Journal's best seller list for a considerable amount of time.
    Last edited by Frank B; Apr. 1, 2013 at 08:50 AM.
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Workers in America work more hours, have less vacation, no guaranteed health care, no job protection without civil service or a union, and often have their hours manipulated so they do not even get overtime. I happen to be a very well educated professional, and still had to suffer from both sexual harassment and wage inequality, as well as lack of equal opportunity from the private sector. Much of the latter has changed for women who weren't in the first wave of professional school graduates. And I was privileged.

    If a full time job or a group of part time jobs that equal full time work does not pay enough to lift the hard working sob who is in that situation out of poverty and give him/her health care and a pension or equivalent earnings, then the employers ARE exploiting their workers.
    I've belonged to 2 unions working in male-dominated professions. Good benefits came with that membership. OTOH, I worked at several horse farms cleaning stalls, grooming, etc. and had to work jobs to supplement that income in order to get by. Now, with illegal labor to compete with, I doubt I could get a job at a barn.
    Politicians on both sides of the aisle are allowing businesses to exploit workers by hiring illegal workers whom they can get away with paying less than a living wage and no benefits. I get sick of hearing people say illegals do the work Americans won't do. After Katrina, I had many friends in the construction field go to New Orleans to work and were turned away by contractors that told them cheaper labor was on it's way. http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-la...0,128489.story

    I guess my point here is that much of what is happening in the U.S. we bring on ourselves. We have to be vigilant and get ride of the entrenched politicos that impose laws on ordinary citizens yet exempt themselves from them. And to the person that asked which way I voted, it's no one's business however, I will say I didn't vote for either presidential nominee last time around.
    "When a president can pick and choose which laws to follow and which to ignore, he is no longer a president. " Ted Cruz



  9. #89
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    None of them really work if your expect that whatever your idea of a "perfect" life is what will be the result. There are always those who will exploit others and those who will be exploited. In all large communist/socialist societies they just exchanged one group of HAVES with another. There was still a large group of have nots, stuck with no way out.

    Unfortunately those who seek the limelight and leadership roles more often have their own agenda they are hoping to set in motion. It makes no difference what their ideology is. It is mans nature, it seems, to want what others have, to think it all should be shared equally but not to contribute equally, their mindset is right and everyone else's is wrong.

    The sharing the "wealth" of a nation is akin to dividing a cake among a group of children. Some will take their piece and quickly eat it and ask for more. Some will just lick the icing off and ask for another piece even though they didn't eat their cake. Some will refuse it because they don't like that flavor and sulk about it. Some will eat their piece and be happy with that. A few will want to know how it was made, so they can learn to make one on their own. We seem to be heading for the first 2 types as a majority in this country.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
    Do you think this country is heading towards Socialism? As more and more of our society appears to become dependent on the government for necessities it would seem that at some point the scale would tip and socialism would take over completely.

    Some parties link the rise of liberalism with socialism, is that a valid association?
    Just as valid as linking conservatism, with bigotry and fascism.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    And to the person that asked which way I voted, it's no one's business however, I will say I didn't vote for either presidential nominee last time around.
    If you're referring to me, I've never asked how you voted.

    What you said in your previous post was:

    I sit in my graduate classes listening to the young people complaining about the cut in hours at their job yet voting for liberals (you know, the ones who support Obamacare).
    The question I've asked -- repeatedly now -- is who you think these young people should be voting for in order to improve the lot of American workers and job-seekers.

    Not 'liberals', you say, while apparently defining 'liberals' as those who support Obamacare. So who, in your opinion, should your students vote for?

    Obamacare allows Americans to stay on their parents' health care until the age of 26. Thus, voting for candidates who support Obamacare has a direct benefit to your young people. Yet you think that they are not voting in their best interests when they vote for these candidates.

    Clearly, as it 'never occurred to you to ask for benefits', you think that others should not be offered access to basic health care.

    So once again, I ask you to tell me who you think these young people should be voting for. You don't have to name names, but I would like to know what policies and political philosophies you think these young people should support.



  12. #92
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    It's simple, when everybody sits on the wagon, it doesn't move. If a few pull while most sit, the load is very heavy and slow. The pullers tire and
    quit. Only when most pull while a few sit is the load light and the wagon moves quickly.

    Seems the wagon that is our country is unduly burdened and is slowing as pullers tire and quit.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    I think many of those pullers are only pretending to pull.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    It's simple, when everybody sits on the wagon, it doesn't move. If a few pull while most sit, the load is very heavy and slow. The pullers tire and
    quit. Only when most pull while a few sit is the load light and the wagon moves quickly.


    Seems the wagon that is our country is unduly burdened and is slowing as pullers tire and quit.
    Those pulling get tired of pulling just because it's the right thing to do. They want a carrot or two as a reward and don't really want to share it with those sitting in the wagon. Or at least want a say so in who gets the extra carrots.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    A large part of what caused the crisis was dishonest people in banking and real estate taking advantage of loopholes in laws. Many regulations were loosened starting in the Reagan era (and it continued) and people took advantage.

    And no, I do not approve of bailing out said banks and no one going to jail. But it's very difficult to prosecute such crimes now within the current statutes of limitation.
    In pure capitalism, there is no such thing as "dishonesty" as a problem. Everyone gets to purchase or manipulate to the full extent of their ability to do so.

    Loopholes---whether they were a lucky-precondition that bankers found or one which they created-- are logically things they can exploit without criticism.

    Of course, the other side of capitalism-- the thing that keeps shoddy shite like this in check-- is the refusal of the market to buy their product. In the case of loopholes, that means a public who insists on closing them up or forcing bankrupt firms to go bankrupt.

    So capitalism is all good, so long as everyone within it has power. Of course, the point of capitalism is to minimize the other guy's ability to influence you. That certainly has happened with the Big Business/Governent collusion.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    And say yes, I think that liberalism (if you're definining it as the current Democratic administration) is going to lead to a deepening of socialism (if you're definining it as a larger segment of the US population depending on government programs), because the one thing that forces people into government programs like welfare and disability is a lack of jobs that pay a living wage.
    You have a good point: Here-- as in so many other countries-- you come to rely on a handout if you cannot earn a living wage on the open market. So, yeah, the exporting of jobs is part of the problem, and it's not ideological so much as economic.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  17. #97
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    That is pretty naive. Economics and these ideologies are inexorably linked.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    When the gov't forced house purchases with no money down, the unstable people and families were able to buy a house.
    How did the government force anyone to buy a house with no money down?

    I do think the no-down and "liar loan" made available make a lot of people happy-- the buyers with no hope in hell of having 20% down, sellers who could enjoy market prices uncapped by the need for a big downpayment, whoever was selling private mortgage insurance....

    But *no one* was forced to commit to a huge-a$$ debt and investment bet because someone merely made it possible for them to be able to get in.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr View Post
    That is pretty naive. Economics and these ideologies are inexorably linked.
    Darn tootin' they are.

    But how does that relate to the factors that constrain behavior when jobs are being exported? It seems to me that one can be philosophically opposed to welfare or food stamps and still do that if they can't feed themselves with a job they can get.

    My point is that it is to blame to poor for being somehow unthoughtful or uncommitted to an idea when they must risk more than the well-off to live up to it.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I didn't insult you, you self-important whiny twerp (see, that's an insult). Declining to play the definitions game is not insulting you; you were hardly the only person to decide to go in that direction of nailing down exactly what "liberalism" and "socialism" mean.
    I was the first person to ask for the working definitions we'd use on this thread. I don't see how that's a game (meant to belittle or demean-- with winners and losers--as your calling it a "game" implies).

    The point was to create a common set of definitions folks here could work from. If you think that's an insult or a challenge that's too great, that's on you. It was a reasonable and inclusive request.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



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