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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    We all depend on the government hence my post with the list of government we ALL depend on. But hey "completely skipping the definition-demanding " therefore I skipped your post since it is pointless to address anything not defined and really your response is just rambling...
    Here's an idea; if a post is rambling and pointless and you don't read it, just don't respond.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    Completely skipping the definition-demanding and the competition to see who can call who ignorant first,
    Here is another thought, maybe insulting posters before you ramble is not the best way to make a point...


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Here is another thought, maybe insulting posters before you ramble is not the best way to make a point...
    I didn't insult you, you self-important whiny twerp (see, that's an insult). Declining to play the definitions game is not insulting you; you were hardly the only person to decide to go in that direction of nailing down exactly what "liberalism" and "socialism" mean.


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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    I didn't insult you, you self-important whiny twerp (see, that's an insult). Declining to play the definitions game is not insulting you; you were hardly the only person to decide to go in that direction of nailing down exactly what "liberalism" and "socialism" mean.
    I like that creative use of the English language.
    Sounds like you are calling someone a kind of rare bird, not really an insult to my ears.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    1. Unregulated capitalism tends to monopoly, per Bertrand Russell in Freedom and Organization. That certainly seems to be correct, IMO.
    2. The profit motive (greed) is the explicitly the driver of capitalism. Profits are enhanced by lower expenses. Expenses generally include wages and benefits, environmental remediation and preservation, materials costs, quality control, etc. etc.

    In socialism, the driving motive is human welfare, as it is in liberalism--the greatest good for the greatest number.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    http://knarf.english.upenn.edu/Smith/tms133.html

    This disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition, though necessary both to establish and to maintain the distinction of ranks and the order of society, is, at the same time, the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. That wealth and greatness are often regarded with the respect and admiration which are due only to wisdom and virtue; and that the contempt, of which vice and folly are the only proper objects, is often most unjustly bestowed upon poverty and weakness, has been the complaint of moralists in all ages.

    ~ Adam Smith
    The Theory of Moral Sentiments


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  7. #67
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    God, I *wish* the US was on the path to true socialism or even plain old social democracy. That would be fantastic. However, the US has the weakest social welfare state in the western world, socialism is misunderstood and demonized to the point that it is rarely possible to even have a rational discussion about it outside certain academic communities, and the histories and political ideologies that set the stage for socialist and social democrat intervention in many European states are entirely missing from the US. Sadly, there is no true, meaningful leftism in American electoral politics and I don't believe there will be in any foreseeable future.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    In socialism, the driving motive is human welfare, as it is in liberalism--the greatest good for the greatest number.

    Yeah, isn't that what the pigs said in "Animal Farm?"

    Or this? "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."
    - George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 10
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    Yeah, isn't that what the pigs said in "Animal Farm?"

    Or this? "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."
    - George Orwell, Animal Farm, Ch. 10
    Orwell wasn't criticizing socialism (Orwell was a Socialist himself), he was critcizing corrupt leadership (i.e. Stalin).

    And the quote above...not inappropriate for the state of affairs in the US right now.

    I'm pretty sure that George Orwell would agree with inne's post above.


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    And the quote above...not inappropriate for the state of affairs in the US right now.

    I'm pretty sure that George Orwell would agree with inne's post above.

    First, I agree that our country seems to be heading in this direction. However, after reading 1984, I think Orwell was pointing out the direction he thought America would be going in. As a Sociologist, I think Orwell foresaw what was happening to our country, even back then.
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    And the quote above...not inappropriate for the state of affairs in the US right now.

    I'm pretty sure that George Orwell would agree with inne's post above.

    First, I agree that our country seems to be heading in this direction. However, after reading 1984, I think Orwell was pointing out the direction he thought America would be going in. As a Sociologist, I think Orwell foresaw what was happening to our country, even back then.
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bopper View Post
    Do you think this country is heading towards Socialism? As more and more of our society appears to become dependent on the government for necessities it would seem that at some point the scale would tip and socialism would take over completely.

    Some parties link the rise of liberalism with socialism, is that a valid association?
    The reason more Americans are dependent on the government is because the percentage of Americans living below the poverty level has increased over the past decade. Real household income has decreased. Income inequality is on the increase.

    Can you understand that increased poverty ≠ socialism? Can you understand that it has nothing to do with liberalism?

    This interview with Nobel-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz addresses these issues:

    People that are born at the bottom now stay at the bottom whereas in the Scandinavian countries people are still able to work their way up the ladder. Those that start at the bottom have a much better chance of getting to the top than those in the United States.

    More specifically, what other countries should find disturbing about America are three things:

    One, we don't recognize the benefits of people getting access to medicine and other basic necessities of life. In spite of being a rich country, those at the bottom in the US have inadequate healthcare and food. When I visited India this year, I remember how scandalous they thought it was that not everybody had access to food. People in other societies view this as a lack of humanity. A kid born into a poor family should at least have access to adequate food and healthcare.

    Two, America has become a rent-seeking society, a term of opprobrium we usually hear applied to oil-exporting countries. Rent-seekers extract profit from existing industries without contributing value – in the form of innovation, entrepreneurship, and growth – to the economy. They use their wealth to consolidate their power, by influencing regulations and government policies. This has happened in many instances – we see it in our military and drug companies, in our banks that succeeded in stripping away regulations, which allowed them to earn huge profits at the expense of the rest of society – and it's not a model for a competitive dynamic economy.

    Three, we do so little to correct the inequality in our country. In fact, we do much less than countries that have less inequality than we have, and that's disturbing.
    A little socialism might do a lot of good for the US.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    The reason more Americans are dependent on the government is because the percentage of Americans living below the poverty level has increased over the past decade. Real household income has decreased. Income inequality is on the increase.

    Can you understand that increased poverty ≠ socialism? Can you understand that it has nothing to do with liberalism?

    A little socialism might do a lot of good for the US.

    Bolding mine. What I see is people choosing unemployment instead of getting a second job. I sit in my graduate classes listening to the young people complaining about the cut in hours at their job yet voting for liberals (you know, the ones who support Obamacare).
    Why is it most refuse to get a second job vs complain they aren't being paid enough? IMO, most, not all, would rather sit and bitch than get out there and work. Sign of the times.
    I have worked up to 3 jobs at a time to get by. It never occurred to me to ask for benefits. And I have a friend that is working 5 part time jobs to get by. So, I have no sympathy for those griping they can't find work. It's out there- go get it.
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  14. #74
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    When I see the top 1% increasing their income 300% in the last 10 years, and the average schmo 7%, it's REALLY obvious why there is an income gap. Yep, there will always be slackers, but it's the slackers in the top 1% causing the problem.

    When I see "conservatives" whining about this, and yet they were going to vote for the biggest slacker of all who wanted to cut his taxes to 0 and then cut the bottom? Yeah. When we stop subsidizing Exxon slackers instead of focusing on those at the bottom, than we'll be on the right track.


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    Bolding mine. What I see is people choosing unemployment instead of getting a second job. I sit in my graduate classes listening to the young people complaining about the cut in hours at their job yet voting for liberals (you know, the ones who support Obamacare).
    A full-time job at minimum wage puts an American worker below the poverty line with no benefits. You can't blame that on the labor force.

    How is it that you think that voting for conservatives will help the situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    Why is it most refuse to get a second job vs complain they aren't being paid enough? IMO, most, not all, would rather sit and bitch than get out there and work. Sign of the times.
    How many hours a week do you think people should have to work to even reach the frickin' poverty line?

    Here are some stats on the US work force:

    At least 134 countries have laws setting the maximum length of the work week; the U.S. does not.

    In the U.S., 85.8 percent of males and 66.5 percent of females work more than 40 hours per week.

    According to the ILO, “Americans work 137 more hours per year than Japanese workers, 260 more hours per year than British workers, and 499 more hours per year than French workers.”
    Using data by the U.S. BLS, the average productivity per American worker has increased 400% since 1950. One way to look at that is that it should only take one-quarter the work hours, or 11 hours per week, to afford the same standard of living as a worker in 1950 (or our standard of living should be 4 times higher). Is that the case? Obviously not. Someone is profiting, it’s just not the average American worker.
    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    I have worked up to 3 jobs at a time to get by. It never occurred to me to ask for benefits.
    So you've been exploited. How do you feel about that?

    Why is it that American workers think they have few rights and little value? Maybe because they don't.

    Wake up, kathy s. You deserve better treatment in the work place.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #76
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    What is disturbing to me is that someone would have to work 5 jobs to make ends meet and that you would have to ask for benefits in the first place rather than simply get them. It is always a bit odd to me when people start racing to the bottom rather than agitating for improved labour conditions for everyone.


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  17. #77
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    Haven' read all the posts. All I can say is that as a biz owner who has loved and taken care of all my employees over the last 25 years, with every benefit, fair and excellent pay, and still grow my biz to take on others in the same fashion, I can't anymore.

    When I add up all the benefits, salaries and perks that people demand to match what they can get from not working at all from gov't entitlements, and massive regulations that take up so much of my time, I can no longer compete.

    The gov is just putting me out of business, since 2008, when higher prices for everything -- especially feed, bedding and everything that is agricultural since ethanol/corn growing for fuel for the new green enegy diatribe started.

    And with gas prices skyrocketing that winds up in the all costs of goods and services we all need, whether in the horse biz or not. It all winds up with higher prices for all. And I'm NOT the 1 or 2%. Well, at one point I was but I'm rapidly heading to to the "other 47%".

    So sad, I loved employing others, watch them and their families grow.

    Socialism? Maybe. Don't know. All I know is what has happened since 2008 is not geared to people like me who want to grow a biz and hire people and be able to pay them well, give good benefits.

    Basically, I'm shut down. The day of the small biz owner (or any biz that GROSSES over $250K per year, sans expenses) which has driven our economy for centuries, is over. The big ones, that make uber contributions to political canditates will be those who survives as they will always get political favors.

    It sucks.


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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    A full-time job at minimum wage puts an American worker below the poverty line with no benefits. You can't blame that on the labor force.

    How is it that you think that voting for conservatives will help the situation?



    How many hours a week do you think people should have to work to even reach the frickin' poverty line?

    Here are some stats on the US work force:





    So you've been exploited. How do you feel about that?

    Why is it that American workers think they have few rights and little value? Maybe because they don't.

    Wake up, kathy s. You deserve better treatment in the work place.

    I am not a conservative, I am an Independent. And the reason Americans have few rights and little value is b/c they keep voting for people like McCain, Reid, and Pelosi. The reason Americans have few rights and little value is b/c they DO NOT pay attention to what is going on, instead choose to be sheeple. That's why.

    Until that changes, well here we are...
    And as far as "waking up," I have, for a very long time. Problem is those that haven't...
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    I am not a conservative, I am an Independent. And the reason Americans have few rights and little value is b/c they keep voting for people like McCain, Reid, and Pelosi.
    Yet you were only castigating the 'young people' in your classes for voting for 'liberals'.

    Because I still don't get your point, can you please tell me who you think these young people should be voting for and how you think their policies will promote positive change for American workers?

    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    The reason Americans have few rights and little value is b/c they DO NOT pay attention to what is going on, instead choose to be sheeple. That's why.
    If you're paying attention to what's going on around you, why aren't you standing up for your rights?

    When you're working three jobs and it never occurs to you to ask for benefits, you are the very definition of sheeple.


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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Yet you were only castigating the 'young people' in your classes for voting for 'liberals'.

    Because I still don't get your point, can you please tell me who you think these young people should be voting for and how you think their policies will promote positive change for American workers?



    If you're paying attention to what's going on around you, why aren't you standing up for your rights?

    When you're working three jobs and it never occurs to you to ask for benefits, you are the very definition of sheeple.
    Yeah,

    Keep asking for benefits and let me know how that is working for you...
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon



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