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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    No the housing "bubble" was created by the compete lack of accountability of the lenders, some of which were fresh and new to the banking market. Bad loans were never disclosed and the accounting was a sham, our loan on our house went through 4 banks. Yes, capitalism with no accountability created the housing bubble....wonder whats next...

    Repeal of the Glass Segal Act allowed insurance companies (they were too big to fail as an example) and other financial institutions to be in the loan business without disclosing bad loans. Free market for all, no disclosure to what the "assets" actually were.
    Well, the house bubble was created because everyone and their dog was going to live the american dream without having to work for it, they were entitled to it and a whole bunch of factors came together to give it to them.

    Now every Tom, Dick and Harry could get all the money they wanted, even if they didn't understand that money doesn't really grow on trees, that they have to work for it and treat it right, that they can't just live high on the hog, for them and expect to miraculously the mortgage be as easy to pay every month, the money just appear out of the blue for them, it is their right.

    Yes, some unscrupulous people were selling them their dreams, but people also were coming to them with little thought.

    Happens in so much we do and you know, no matter what society you have, there are some that are not smart enough to figure things out and fall for all and any some slick salesman sells, here the housing bubble.

    As a society, we have to look after the citizens, need sensible laws and regulations, but there is also a line where you have to expect adults to act like they are adults and rational and sensible and not fall for the snake oil salesmen.

    While some think they know how to run societies, there is a point where we have to let the people in them make their own mistakes, because without that, no one would ever learn.
    That is one reason I don't like bankruptcy laws, they are letting people fall into mistakes, let the ones that do take care to do what is right fail then and they do not learn from the failures.

    I know someone who just went thru bankruptcy for the second time and it is made so easy today, while leaving others hanging to make up for it.

    Society dynamics are not as simple cause and effect as we may want to make them sound.
    By the time we can look back and see what all is happening, there were many forces tugging at our past and depending where we stand ourselves colors what we choose to see.

    Talking about disruptions to the existing path our country is taking, just wait until the results of this new socialized type medicine is implemented more thoroughly next year.
    I read some articles in medical magazines trying to figure this out, to position themselves where they can live with the new reality.
    I think in the end we may have a bigger disruption to our lives with this situation than the housing market bobble caused and yes, that "bobble" is not a spelling error.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Socialism is a system that seeks to satisfy human needs, goods are produced for use and not just private profit. "To each according to his contribution" " From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" The idea is that human behavior is shaped by the social environment people grow up in and when people develop their own interests and use their own talents through work they become happier and more productive. The belief is that a capitalist government controlled system concentrates wealth and creates inequality which does not allow individuals that are exploited to reach their potential.

    Ideally everything is owned by co op, worker run institutions producing goods for other workers with each worker having a say in the production of the goods. Eventually money would become non existent as it would become unnecessary. As everyone's needs are met money would become obselete

    Marx believed that communism and eventually socialism were the natural course of things, as workers became more upset at wage slavery and would eventually overthrow the state and moving toward a classless society.

    If you look at the conditions of lower class workers during the time frame this view makes much more sense.

    So real socialism and communism are initiated at the very bottom level in a spontaneous movement, by the workers who join together to combat the slavery like conditions, and not by a government who uses the definition to seek more power and control and as a reason for taking things away from people that need them.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    I think this is like a bunch of kids playing together: the kids being capitalism. Then the parents and coaches come and take over: they being the government. Now if the kids are left to play on their own, they will figure out the rules. Sometimes it won't be pretty, there will be some knock-down, drag outs but they will end up with a game that suits everyone. Those that play hard will do better than those who try to cheat or slouch. When the parents/coaches get involved and start imposing THEIR rules based on THEIR idea of fairness, fair play, equality then nobody knows what the game is anymore and the kids of left powerless, except to try and follow ever-changing rules and regulations.

    Capitalism needs to keep parents and coaches out of the game. And you're right...we don't have that in the U.S. We have a bastardization of capitalism. And THAT doesn't work.
    Of course, too far the other way results in Lord of the Flies...

    I'm not sure most people are on board with an extreme in either direction, as there can be good and bad points to both. IMO, the big problem is that the strongest make the rules and arrange things for their own gain. That disenfranchises everyone else, particularly if the 'everyone else' stays busy blaming and bickering between themselves.
    ---------------------------


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVPeg View Post
    . . .\
    Frankly, it really all happened when mortgages were sold on the secondary market, and no one ever maintained the personnel to adequately oversee them. Period.
    Agree with this in terms of the housing market. Mortgages turned into "paper" and got sold as investment vehicles independent of due diligence regarding the collateral and the mortgage holder.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post

    Capitalism needs to keep parents and coaches out of the game. And you're right...we don't have that in the U.S. We have a bastardization of capitalism. And THAT doesn't work.
    I believe that scenario was considered in Lord of the Flies....


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  6. #46
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    I wasn't talking about anything as extreme as that...which was fiction.

    I mean a playground situation where kids are just playing. They scrap, they come up with *rules* for their made up game. It's actually a developmental step that is missing from childhoods these day. The ability to learn to work with a group, come up with mutually acceptable boundaries, negotiate, compromise and end up with a game. It enhances leadership skills in some children, enhances worker bee skills in others, allows for imaginative outlets...all kinds of developmental opportunities that are taken away or squelched as soon as adults come in and start applying THEIR rules and expecting the kids to 'hop to' just because that's how it's done.


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  7. #47
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    There's an ancient governing strategy that is based on providing just enough assistance to placate the underclasses for the purpose of preventing uprisings, and then finding ways to take enough from the underclasses, to pervert them from becoming powerful enough to inplement changes that might threaten the balance of power.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    There's an ancient governing strategy that is based on providing just enough assistance to placate the underclasses for the purpose of preventing uprisings, and then finding ways to take enough from the underclasses, to pervert them from becoming powerful enough to inplement changes that might threaten the balance of power.
    I suspect we may be approaching a tipping point.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Which way do you see it tipping?

    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I suspect we may be approaching a tipping point.



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I suspect we may be approaching a tipping point.
    I wonder if it's just a coincidence that those who tend to achieve power also tend to support those policies that facilitated their success.

    In other words. The path to success favors those whose actions tend to enable those who are already successful.

    This doesn't tend provide for many alternative choices for supporting existence, even if those other choices might be viable.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I suspect we may be approaching a tipping point.
    I think we've already tipped. Now it's just a matter of time before our middle class way of life no longer exists. We are already owned.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Double.



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildBlue View Post
    Of course, too far the other way results in Lord of the Flies...

    I'm not sure most people are on board with an extreme in either direction, as there can be good and bad points to both. IMO, the big problem is that the strongest make the rules and arrange things for their own gain. That disenfranchises everyone else, particularly if the 'everyone else' stays busy blaming and bickering between themselves.
    Good and bad points, people come from all extremes also, the ones working hard and making it work for them, those that don't quite make it and the freeloaders the others have to carry.

    In paper, it sounds good to want to run a society of equals, but where do you put those that don't pull their weight and those that are outright crooks and criminals then, before you catch them to put them away so they don't get to participate and take advantage when they can?

    We have an imperfect set of humans and we have to consider all of them when trying to make societies work and that is a juggling effort and why we have the societies we have and none that stable.
    We have a boiling pot, not one sitting on a cold stove.

    If science and technology doesn't save our bacon yet again, with as many humans as we have, we are headed for an implosion, as we will be scrambling for scarce resources of all kinds, food one that may become in short supply sooner rather than later.

    While more and more of the world is getting a better standard of living, "only" half are starving today, compared with 2/3 a few short decades ago, I am not sure that those in the first world and with first world problems will hold the fort down so we can keep trying to bring all on board.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Good and bad points, people come from all extremes also, the ones working hard and making it work for them, those that don't quite make it and the freeloaders the others have to carry.

    In paper, it sounds good to want to run a society of equals, but where do you put those that don't pull their weight and those that are outright crooks and criminals then, before you catch them to put them away so they don't get to participate and take advantage when they can?

    We have an imperfect set of humans and we have to consider all of them when trying to make societies work and that is a juggling effort and why we have the societies we have and none that stable.
    We have a boiling pot, not one sitting on a cold stove.

    If science and technology doesn't save our bacon yet again, with as many humans as we have, we are headed for an implosion, as we will be scrambling for scarce resources of all kinds, food one that may become in short supply sooner rather than later.

    While more and more of the world is getting a better standard of living, "only" half are starving today, compared with 2/3 a few short decades ago, I am not sure that those in the first world and with first world problems will hold the fort down so we can keep trying to bring all on board.
    Guess I don't have to give examples of that, plenty right here on COTH.
    I think water will become the new oil.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I think water will become the new oil.
    Yes, definitely.

    Did I mention we are in the third year of a record breaking drought, some say the 17th of a 30 year drought cycle?



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    I'm not going to call you ignorant. I'm sure you are not. Neither am I. We just disagree. People that disagree with you are not stupid, they generally have a different perspective based on education or experience. We all need to learn from each other and meet on the middle. Hard to do when you assume folks who disagree with you are unable to offer anything to the conversation.
    I don't think someone arguing for pure capitalism-- while remembering it's failures-- is ignorant, per se. But what I don't understand is why someone would support something that screwed them over. How do you resolve the two?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  17. #57
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    Again, y'all need definitions and examples of the "capitalism" you'd like and the "socialism" you don't want.

    With respect to pure capitalism, I assume you mean little-to-no regulation. Monopolies are cool, unsafe working conditions are cool-- to the extent that the market allows those. Would you favorite examples be Dickensian England? The US in the 1880s and 1890s? Show me the capitalism you mean.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Honest capitalism could work. It would the ideal. However we know that'll never happen.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post
    Gee, who the hell pissed in your cheerios?

    I forgot NO HUMOR ALLOWED!!

    Too bad, I'm posting the rest of the Facebook post because I thought it was FUNNY and we can all use a little bit of humor every once in a while on these types of topics. If that offends you well then good for you, here's a gold star.
    Humor is super-awesome..... when it is In Addition To and not A Substitute For serious thought.

    Really Not Funny in the end of the giant plan is to laugh about shitty government until it bites you in the ass. And here's the thing, I think we are getting bitten in the ass now.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    And here's the thing, I think we are getting bitten in the ass now.
    No disagreement from me there.



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