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  1. #561
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    I have said it before and I'll say it again. I do not care what happens to a carcass once it's dead - I care how it gets dead.
    What is wrong with that??
    There are concerns - I won't bother listing them.
    Why can we not make it better than it is?? Are we so worried that we are going to lose our rights that we can't make an animals ending as painless and stress free as possible???
    I'll say this again as well - the "processing" of horses is not about the damn horse.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    I have said it before and I'll say it again. I do not care what happens to a carcass once it's dead - I care how it gets dead.
    What is wrong with that??
    There are concerns - I won't bother listing them.
    .
    JG, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what you ask.

    What is wrong is the pro-slaughter folks being okay with "a few misses" or "meeting minimum standards" as well as believing the USDA will make sure the process is cruelty free.

    What is wrong is having tunnel vision and thinking there is only ONE way to deal with excess horses.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  3. #563
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    Nobody has said that slaughter is the only way to deal with excess horses. We have said that it should be available to the people who choose to use it. We have also repeatedly asked for viable solutions to the excess horse issue. To date I have not seen any real solution to this issue from the anti-slaughter people.
    I support equine meat processing as an option for those who choose to use it.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #564
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    OPTION 1: Get the price of horses up and you will reduce the number of unwanted-send-em-to-slaughter-any-way-you-can horses. If the cost of horse increases - you will increase the $$ in the pockets of those who produce horses and produce meat. Increase profit per pound may also increase incentive to do "it" humanely - specially if humane is the only option.

    How to get the price of horses up? Tax and license the breeders. I am sure California could find a way to do it.

    I hear you groaning and raising the Kraken RASH!
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #565
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    I have to add, one of the more inhumane problems with the slaughter en-masse industry is the conditions the people who work there are subjected to. I have read accounts of a few people who "did time" in the chicken houses and the pig houses - either as VEts or workers. And they still have a difficult time dealing with how they did their work.

    I would think the workers' welfare should also be a concern for the Temple Grandins and folks who desire slaughter to be more gentle for the animal.

    To do that it have to be humane for the person.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #566
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    Mar. 5, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    OPTION 1: Get the price of horses up and you will reduce the number of unwanted-send-em-to-slaughter-any-way-you-can horses. If the cost of horse increases - you will increase the $$ in the pockets of those who produce horses and produce meat. Increase profit per pound may also increase incentive to do "it" humanely - specially if humane is the only option.

    How to get the price of horses up? Tax and license the breeders. I am sure California could find a way to do it.

    I hear you groaning and raising the Kraken RASH!
    And how about good old supply and demand? Hay and grain costs are high with no relief in sight. People seem to be breeding less. Even the ignorant have to realize you can't make a profit just by breeding whatever to whatever. Of course that doesn't account for really stupid and cruel but why would we want to build those people a market for their horses (slaughter)


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  7. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    Nobody has said that slaughter is the only way to deal with excess horses. We have said that it should be available to the people who choose to use it. We have also repeatedly asked for viable solutions to the excess horse issue. To date I have not seen any real solution to this issue from the anti-slaughter people.
    If the slaughter of horses for human consumption was actually a solution to the 'excess horses' problem, more would be shipping to slaughter than presently are.... there are lots and lots of free and cheap horses out there looking for a place to go. Why are they just languishing when they could ship?

    Horse slaughter for human consumption is a business of supplying a product based on the demand for it. The plants slaughter what they have a demand for, thus they do not take more horses then they presently have a demand for.

    The demand, in fact, may go down more with the recent issues consumers are having with the disguising of horsemeat as beef, and the discovery of one of the many banned drugs in that meat and the lack of assurances that quality control will find and stop that drug and the others from being allowed to make it to the market.

    If the access to this solution to 'excess horses', slaughter, was so vitally important to those posting here promoting slaughter, one would think addressing the very real problems with the product and the process, that is in fact hurting the demand, would be primary. That they instead choose to hit the snooze button when this wake up call is made... appears self defeating to me.

    We have repeatedly asked that slaughter [from the auction house to the plant] be made more humane, going back to those 'old' reports of issues in Kaufman, at Dekalb and at other stops along the pipeline. You have to wonder why those who are pro-slaughter choose to malign the information from before the 3 US plants closed and label it 'old' instead of recognizing the pattern it represents.
    We've asked that the product be reliably safe for consumers to ingest and that it comply with the requirements, sound or not, that the buying agencies require, to no avail.
    There is no recognition that things could be better or suggestions about measures to make it so, nor are there any suggestions of how enforcing the changes that would make it so would be achieved.

    Perhaps, if they would clean house and get their act together, there would be more demand, and there would be your solution to this supposed 'excess horses' problem.

    The pro-slaughter RASHES don't address those problems, instead they petulantly stamp their proverbial feet and insist it's as good as it can be, as it should be.
    All while ignoring the very reality of the concern over the recent discoveries and the potential for a dramatic decline in the demand.

    We see suggestions that there is a bute test coming out, but never any verification of that development, or updates of when, apparently, it's appearance was delayed.
    No suggestions of testing for the other, commonly used drugs on the banned lists the buying agencies have in place.
    No chagrin that tainted meat has slipped through and been found in the end product.
    No remorse whatsoever.

    And they still wonder why the demand goes down and the solution to 'excess horses' is not more widely embraced.

    Pro-slaughter has itself to blame for the problems it is facing and the potential that the proposed plants could fail to open to deal with this 'problem'.
    You can only stick your fingers in your ears and sing for so long before it becomes obvious that it's your failure to acknowledge and adequately address the problems in the industry that are bringing about your demise.

    It makes me think all this 'blame Peta, blame HSUS, lump all those opposed to slaughter into those fringe groups' is simply a way to deflect that guilt.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Apr. 8, 2013 at 10:16 AM. Reason: spelling


    10 members found this post helpful.

  8. #568
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    Excellent, Angela.


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  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    If the slaughter of horses for human consumption was actually a solution to the 'excess horses' problem, more would be shipping to slaughter than presently are.... there are lots and lots of free and cheap horses out there looking for a place to go. Why are they just languishing when they could ship?

    Horse slaughter for human consumption is a business of supplying a product based on the demand for it. The plants slaughter what they have a demand for, thus they do not take more horses then they presently have a demand for.

    The demand, in fact, may go down more with the recent issues consumers are having with the disguising of horsemeat as beef, and the discovery of one of the many banned drugs in that meat and the lack of assurances that quality control will find and stop that drug and the others from being allowed to make it to the market.

    If the access to this solution to 'excess horses', slaughter, was so vitally important to those posting here promoting slaughter, one would think addressing the very real problems with the product and the process, that is in fact hurting the demand, would be primary.

    We have repeatedly asked that slaughter [from the auction house to the plant] be made more humane, and that the product be reliably safe for consumers, to no avail. There is no recognition that things could be better or suggestions about measures to make it so, nor are there any suggestions of how enforcing the changes that would make it so would be achieved.

    The pro-slaughter RASHES don't address those problems, instead they petulantly stamp their proverbial feet and insist it's as good as it can be, as it should be.
    All while ignoring the very reality of the concern over the recent discoveries and the potential decline in the demand.

    We see suggestions that there is a bute test coming out, but never any verification of that development, or updates of when, apparently, it's appearance was delayed.
    No suggestions of testing for the other, commonly used drugs on the banned list.
    No chagrin that tainted meat has slipped through and been found in the end product.

    And they wonder why the demand goes down and the solution to 'excess horses' is not more widely embraced.

    Pro-slaughter has itself to blame for the problems it is facing and the potential that the proposed plants could fail to open to deal with this 'problem'.
    You can only stick your fingers in your ears and sing for so long before it becomes obvious that it's your failure to acknowledge and adequately address the problems in the industry that are bringing about your demise.

    It makes me think all this 'blame Peta, blame HSUS, lump all those opposed to slaughter into those fringe groups' is simply a way to deflect that guilt.
    Smoke and mirrors, deflecting the real issues here.

    The way I see this, animal rights extremists are the ones that "petulantly stamp their proverbial feet and insist" it's all evil, using the abuse and mismanagement card, way out of context, that anyone with any sense knows it is not so, it was not so.

    Remember, slaughter, while a "distasteful" process, is one humans have evolved using from the time the first animal was scavenged by our ancestors, the first animal was bopped on the head when caught, has been for millenia.
    Saying that we need to BAN slaughter, a perfectly fine process to use SOME of our natural, renewable resources, is against common sense.

    Anyone with an axe to grind, here animal rights extremists, insisting their view of the world, putting all animals except humans on a pedestal and making them demi-gods, ignoring the realities of this world, this universe, that evolved with all of us being dependent of each other, those axe grinding animal rights extremists keep confusing a perfectly good process, to use some of the natural, renewable resources in our world horses are for humans, with their absurd demands that, because of any abuse and mismanagement, now we need to BAN slaughter.

    Sorry, that ship is really not floating, but sunk long ago.

    Those for animal welfare, using animals thru the best way we can do so and improving those methods as we go, those of us know better than follow animal rights extremist bandwagons with their myths, propaganda and out of context cries for BANS because of real or imaginary questions their propaganda digs up.

    In summary, want to follow animal rights extremists and be a vegan?
    Fine, each one has the right to have their own ideas.
    Wanting to eventually eliminate all use of animals, have a vegan world, as is the ultimate goal of animal rights extremists, here one more battle ground with the drive to BAN horse slaughter?
    When you want to impose that on the rest of us, sorry, your rights end at your neighbor's feet.

    For those that now will insist they are not following animal rights extremists in their drive to ban slaughter, think again, because that is exactly what you are doing.
    See the difference between animal rights extremists and drives to ban and animal welfare, that is what everyone caring and using animals works for does.
    Once you are for a BAN, well, you have chosen your side, no matter how you may want to excuse that to yourself.
    There is NO grey area here, a BAN is a very terminal animal rights extremist goal, no animal welfare there left to talk about.



  10. #570
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    Bluey, I don't think everyone here is for a BAN. You are purposely twisting words and misunderstand the motivations of posters.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    6 members found this post helpful.

  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Smoke and mirrors, deflecting the real issues here.

    The way I see this, animal rights extremists are the ones that "petulantly stamp their proverbial feet and insist" it's all evil, using the abuse and mismanagement card, way out of context, that anyone with any sense knows it is not so, it was not so.

    Remember, slaughter, while a "distasteful" process, is one humans have evolved using from the time the first animal was scavenged by our ancestors, the first animal was bopped on the head when caught, has been for millenia.
    Saying that we need to BAN slaughter, a perfectly fine process to use SOME of our natural, renewable resources, is against common sense.

    Anyone with an axe to grind, here animal rights extremists, insisting their view of the world, putting all animals except humans on a pedestal and making them demi-gods, ignoring the realities of this world, this universe, that evolved with all of us being dependent of each other, those axe grinding animal rights extremists keep confusing a perfectly good process, to use some of the natural, renewable resources in our world horses are for humans, with their absurd demands that, because of any abuse and mismanagement, now we need to BAN slaughter.

    Sorry, that ship is really not floating, but sunk long ago.

    Those for animal welfare, using animals thru the best way we can do so and improving those methods as we go, those of us know better than follow animal rights extremist bandwagons with their myths, propaganda and out of context cries for BANS because of real or imaginary questions their propaganda digs up.

    In summary, want to follow animal rights extremists and be a vegan?
    Fine, each one has the right to have their own ideas.
    Wanting to eventually eliminate all use of animals, have a vegan world, as is the ultimate goal of animal rights extremists, here one more battle ground with the drive to BAN horse slaughter?
    When you want to impose that on the rest of us, sorry, your rights end at your neighbor's feet.

    For those that now will insist they are not following animal rights extremists in their drive to ban slaughter, think again, because that is exactly what you are doing.
    See the difference between animal rights extremists and drives to ban and animal welfare, that is what everyone caring and using animals works for does.
    Once you are for a BAN, well, you have chosen your side, no matter how you may want to excuse that to yourself.
    There is NO grey area here, a BAN is a very terminal animal rights extremist goal, no animal welfare there left to talk about.
    Case in point.... exactly what I was talking about.
    Thanks Bluey.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7arabians View Post
    Laura,
    Nearly all of the videos that the AR groups like to post at every site are fabricated. The big groups use more radical groups to do the dirty work. They hire into the HS, or the egg farm, or the hog farm, (usually at least 2 members of groups like ALF) and then take turns committing abuses and filming one another. Of course, they then sell the footage to other AR groups and after months or years, release the footage. The public is so outraged that they don't question the authenticity of the footage. The infiltrators then quit and the victim farm, SH, etc is left wondering what the heck happened!
    There are even videos circulating which involved AR groups literally copying the layouts of some slaughterhouses, then committing unspeakable acts and taping it.
    Never forget the AR zealots who drive around picking up stray animals (so they can find them good homes) only to strangle them in their vans and toss the bodies in dumpsters and landfills. Often, when people find the bodies, they think there is some sort of devil-worship group at work. But alas, it is just the work of AR zealots.
    So it's only RARA's that commit abuse and cruelty in the horse slaughter plants?

    RARA's get hired in the plant, they then abuse the animals, stun or beat them inhumanely, and film it? How is it they are the only ones working in that area at the time of filming? What, were they putting in overtime while everone else went home?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #573
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    Wonder if anyone has ever gone to PETA's Website.
    OH my GOD!
    For your viewing pleasure.. http://www.peta.org/
    And what the hell is with these hollywood types, God they are so useless.
    Another one to add to my list of hollywood idiots.. Ryan Gosling.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  14. #574
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    Yes, almost all of us agree that PETA is whacked. So what?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Yes, almost all of us agree that PETA is whacked. So what?
    It's called a red herring or a non sequitur


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    JG, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what you ask.

    What is wrong is the pro-slaughter folks being okay with "a few misses" or "meeting minimum standards" as well as believing the USDA will make sure the process is cruelty free.

    What is wrong is having tunnel vision and thinking there is only ONE way to deal with excess horses.
    If you are employed Jenn then you are aware that every company strives for perfection. That said...it is almost impossible to achieve. That does not mean a doctor doesn't care if a patient dies "due to complications" that does not mean a customer service rep doesn't want the customers order to be fulfilled correctly and it doesn't mean that the airlines don't care about you not your luggage. (They actually really do care because it is so expensive for them when they lose it)

    Perfection is the goal..but it is not going to be attainable 100% of the time. Equipment malfunctions, horses twitch and move AND there will be an employee who needs to be fired.

    We have listened to your "solutions" and while they are not new nor unique, ... the one was a corporate sponsored Rescue (yup..another one with Purina attached..you purchase goods from the rescue store and a couple of percent of the $$$ goes to the rescue)..EVERYTHING HELPS.

    The large amount of horses that are "at risk" according to HSUS and USDA is around 100,000 and that is right now...here and now...can't wait until tomorrow...THOSE are the ones that this might have to be an option for.

    Registration bodies i.e. ASHA, AQHA, AHA, Morgans etc have forms a breeder or owner can file and if the horse comes to the attention of the registration body they will contact you so you can purchase or know where the sale is etc.

    EVERY little step and suggestion has merit.

    Slaughter is also a BUSINESS. Pure and Simple. It provides MEAT for the masses in Europe. This is no different than the cod industry, chicken industry, pork, lamb etc. Jews do NOT eat pork

    As a matter of fact Orthodox jews must have two kitchens as meat and dairy can not be stored in the same kitchen and same fridge. I point this out because they are feverant in their beliefs...but they do not try and ban anyone from eating pork, or only using one fridge.

    That is my problem with you.

    The bar is set for failure. You refuse to acknowledge that improvements and changes have been made. You quote old time crap from the internet and you say we won't work with you.

    You are correct because all you want to do is BAN AND TAX.


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  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    If you are employed Jenn then you are aware that every company strives for perfection. That said...it is almost impossible to achieve. That does not mean a doctor doesn't care if a patient dies "due to complications" that does not mean a customer service rep doesn't want the customers order to be fulfilled correctly and it doesn't mean that the airlines don't care about you not your luggage. (They actually really do care because it is so expensive for them when they lose it)

    Perfection is the goal..but it is not going to be attainable 100% of the time. Equipment malfunctions, horses twitch and move AND there will be an employee who needs to be fired.

    We have listened to your "solutions" and while they are not new nor unique, ... the one was a corporate sponsored Rescue (yup..another one with Purina attached..you purchase goods from the rescue store and a couple of percent of the $$$ goes to the rescue)..EVERYTHING HELPS.

    The large amount of horses that are "at risk" according to HSUS and USDA is around 100,000 and that is right now...here and now...can't wait until tomorrow...THOSE are the ones that this might have to be an option for.

    Registration bodies i.e. ASHA, AQHA, AHA, Morgans etc have forms a breeder or owner can file and if the horse comes to the attention of the registration body they will contact you so you can purchase or know where the sale is etc.

    EVERY little step and suggestion has merit.

    Slaughter is also a BUSINESS. Pure and Simple. It provides MEAT for the masses in Europe. This is no different than the cod industry, chicken industry, pork, lamb etc. Jews do NOT eat pork

    As a matter of fact Orthodox jews must have two kitchens as meat and dairy can not be stored in the same kitchen and same fridge. I point this out because they are feverant in their beliefs...but they do not try and ban anyone from eating pork, or only using one fridge.

    That is my problem with you.

    The bar is set for failure. You refuse to acknowledge that improvements and changes have been made. You quote old time crap from the internet and you say we won't work with you.

    You are correct because all you want to do is BAN AND TAX.
    And another case in point.
    Thank you for proving my point Fairfax.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #578
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    Angela

    You are so very wrong in so many areas

    You haven't seen any changes because you have never been to a slaughter plant in the past seven years or so (if ever..I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt)

    Canadian slaughter has changed. I have documented and printed the changes.

    Laura and her group of which you are a member took umbrage when I stated a revelation to us was when we discovered many of those working on the direct kill floor were European (or Asian i.e. Somalian) and due to their beliefs..Catholic or Muslim..that animals did not have souls..they did not care what their treatment of those beasts of burden was.

    We had to find a solution..so we did...no stress...accuracy...slow, steady and easy, not ever whipping a horse..confirmed by the reviewed tapes put in the plants resulted in MONEY in their pockets. THAT became the incentive. And as a group scored higher and higher there were other perks and bonusus.

    The industry must change and there are going to be those who resist it..under the current climate of politics etc I do believe they will not be in business for a long time.

    However when I stated that above that little group decried my picking on Catholics..how dare I... Muslims..how dare I...which led me to believe that they did not want any solutions...these rara's WANT the old and violent ways so they can continue to expound.

    It has been very dry for them...Angela...and you...ALL of your current information comes from countries that don't care or the politics result in people not caring. And there is also no reason why those of us here in North America should be held accountable for them.

    You continue to hound on the bute test. I would rather have them delay it and have 100% accuracy then have them use it and fail must to your happiness.

    People complain about the airplane flight delay...I would rather discover a problem and have a delay than discover a problem in the air and have a crash.

    No one owes YOU or anyone in your group an explaination. I can't give you one because I don't know why there is a delay. You have been told this over and over and over but you continue to bring it up as if it is new information to support your cause.

    Everyone I have read who is pro clearly states they agree that the chutes need to be made "for the horse". There are also equipment changes that needed to be made. And they have been herein Canada.

    You claim they are not making those changes in the U.S. I do agree because THERE ARE NO SLAUGHTER PLANTS. Period

    You are like the interviewer who asks the guest a question, interrupts the guest and answeres your own question and then screams at him because you disagree with the answer Businesses do not function on remorse. They function on a bottom line. Remorse does NOT correct a problem ...it is only for those touchy feely type who want to wail and cry. Business reacts to market conditions. If there is no market they close. If they have a boycott because they are not providing service they close. If they sell contaminated food..they will not have buyers.


    You keep quoting the E.U. current problem and some how you still attach it to North America. The ONLY groups saying the meat came from Canada are the Rara's. There has been absolutely NO proof of that. Go to the E.U. cite...or better yet Angela...PHONE THEM....

    You have provided us with so much inaccurate information ongoing I believe you need to make some changes before you have lost all credibility...oh..wait...too late


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #579
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    Thanks Angela

    You finally agree your solution is to ban and tax

    Not that it is any business of mine but are you on a government support program? Those are the only individuals I have found who refuse to acknowledge that business IS to make money so they can afford to pay health programs, wages to employees etc. To those who are rara activists most are on support programs and as long as they get their government money from the tax payer they don't care.

    If there was a slaughter plant that took more horses than they should safety and feed could become an issue and then you would add that to your shrinking banner

    What is YOUR solution Angela. ?? You have refused to answer each time and claim you have one..but we won't listen...

    Please share with al of us



  20. #580
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    More problems with passports and trace-ability:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...RED-March.html

    Last month, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland discovered forged documents had been used in processing some horses at a reputable abattoir in Limerick. While the documentation initially appeared genuine, the veterinary stamp had in fact been forged. The meat was intended for export to Italy.

    ‘A horse is not allowed into the human food chain unless it has a passport and it is microchipped and identified,’ he told the Agriculture Committee.
    ‘It must be identified within six months of birth, or within the year of birth. We are enforcing those rules now. I am not saying everything was perfect in the past.’


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2Pt3F0lMb
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    But keep pretending there are no problems. Good luck with that.


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