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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    There's lots of material out there that is not faked.
    The Texarkansas horses that were injured during shipping, the myriad of info out of Kaufman and other towns that witnessed what went on at the plants, the news stories coming out about horsemeat being passed off as beef and containing banned drugs, the unpaid fines of those caught doing wrong,... off the top of my head.

    My point is that the RASHES here tend to knee-jerk label all material as PETA material... when they haven't even looked at/read it first. And without any proof that the label fits, or an attempt to prove it.
    There's a level of laissez-faire, limp wristed dismissal that tells me that they are not even one bit critical of the industry, and to me that's dangerous to do, even if you're on the same 'side'.

    Is there faked material? Sure. Is some out there accurate and hideous? Youbetcha'
    I'm sorry to read that you aren't as discerning as I thought you were.
    I am trying to be unemotional about this whole thing.
    I believe the mexican one with men prodding a horse onto the trailer that was taken last year is true. I Find the fact that ARA groups that pray on peoples kindness and decency, and the shock factor they implore hideous.
    I Want proof! Real proof. I am not saying there are not bad incidences, in fact to me the worst part of the whole slaughter thing is the transportation.
    That to me is far worse than the actual killing.
    The suffering for hours on end in those cattle trucks. That makes me sick.
    I am sorry you feel I am not discerning enough, I think emotion has to stay our of it. I love horses like I have said, but I do not trust a lot of what I see and read. on the internet. Make me believe differently.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Hey Angela...I try and type like someone is speaking with me.

    So..are you ever going to give us any CURRENT video's?

    And I know you are playing hide n seek..but don't you want to just give us a "little solution"

    You sure love to take the tread off topic when the heat is turned up on your posts.
    Define 'current'.
    The vid I posted was from 2012. That's fairly current.

    The news stories I've linked to are from the last few months when the proverbial merde hit the fan with horsemeat disguised as beef being discovered, and then found to have banned drugs in them.

    Other articles I've posted of how things were done in the US were from when we had US plants... so not 'current', but certainly relevant considering one of the issues is the idea that promises are being made about 'doing things better' when new plants are built here in the US.. comparing to what it was like when we did have plants, regardless of the age of the materials, is relevant to the discussion of what improvements will be made.

    Kinda' like that ol Bute test you keep talking about. Alas that didn't work out so well in Europe, they tested, but the meat was gone and et before the test results [positive] came back.
    Yup, those test sure are a help towards keeping the food supply clean!
    Not to mention the other drugs it doesn't test for that are commonly used by horsekeepers, but banned by the EU and others.


    Now the links you share are super current and relevant aren't they?
    Oh...
    wait....

    Arguing the facts with you is impossible!
    Because you never present anything to argue... certainly no facts with any supporting information or verification.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Apr. 6, 2013 at 06:59 PM.


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  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I am trying to be unemotional about this whole thing.
    I believe the mexican one with men prodding a horse onto the trailer that was taken last year is true. I Find the fact that ARA groups that pray on peoples kindness and decency, and the shock factor they implore hideous.
    I Want proof! Real proof. I am not saying there are not bad incidences, in fact to me the worst part of the whole slaughter thing is the transportation.
    That to me is far worse than the actual killing.
    The suffering for hours on end in those cattle trucks. That makes me sick.
    I am sorry you feel I am not discerning enough, I think emotion has to stay our of it. I love horses like I have said, but I do not trust a lot of what I see and read. on the internet. Make me believe differently.
    You don't believe what the Anti side posts?
    Or are you also saying you find the information lacking from the 'I heard from a friend who once, a few decades ago, worked in a slaughter plant who said....' pro-slaughter side as well?

    To me it's easy to prove that the industry was horrendous at all levels, AND that the motivation to change things shrinks in comparison to the motivation to do things exactly the same way...

    However, to prove to me that they will, in fact, with no more oversight or money for oversight, or other motivation to do so than in the past... and in light of the things that are coming to light re: meat from other plants in other countries that are supposed to be MORE vigilant about the sources of the meat and the drugs exposure... be better... that's a hard one.

    For example, the suggestion that there is a test that will detect one drug, Bute... but not all the drugs that are banned... that doesn't make the meat safer to eat because there's maybe a test that may be run for one drug that might stop the shipment of tainted meat... or might not as we're seeing in Britian. That doesn't sit well with me in terms of it being a product the US would be exporting.

    And spending alot of money to build, oversee, and maintain these plants for very little return to export this tainted product the EU keeps saying they probably will not want.
    That makes sense how?
    What do we get out of it- a few low wage, hard jobs that often are filled with 'illegals', low or no taxes paid locally, or federally, all the profits taken overseas... so even that isn't spent domestically... and the stress on the infrastructure and the economy of the neighborhood these plants might inhabit- homes prices have been hit hard enough with the burst bubble and neighbors foreclosures further reducing the home values... then you plop one of these plants amidst a community that might be struggling and who do those people sell those homes to if they want to get out of there?

    I just do not see the 'win' in this scenerio... unless you have an investment of some sort in the actual plant and it's profits. It's bad for neighborhoods/communities home values, bad for creating jobs, bad for the communities infrastructure,... crime increases around these plants,.... where is the win? Why would we want these plants? Would YOU want one near your home?


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  4. #504
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    No I sure would not. There is holes on both sides. I still think because we as a nation do not eat horse it is not going to be as closely regulated as the beef industry.
    I also think it is nuts for the industry if they do open another house in the US and from their perspective not have a totally state of the art plant that is specifically for horses. The money alone I would think would be reason to have a well run operation.
    >I did just watch one that was an undercover in Mexico and it had in big letters at the start and finish DO NOT contact any officials about this video it will put us in danger. That was suspect right there.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post

    And spending alot of money to build, oversee, and maintain these plants for very little return to export this tainted product the EU keeps saying they probably will not want.
    That makes sense how?
    What do we get out of it- a few low wage, hard jobs that often are filled with 'illegals', low or no taxes paid locally, or federally, all the profits taken overseas... so even that isn't spent domestically... and the stress on the infrastructure and the economy of the neighborhood these plants might inhabit- homes prices have been hit hard enough with the burst bubble and neighbors foreclosures further reducing the home values... then you plop one of these plants amidst a community that might be struggling and who do those people sell those homes to if they want to get out of there?
    Silly Angela, you are missing the whole point! It's not about the community. Opening slaughter plants is all about humane euthanasia for the thousands of old and lame horses nobody wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Would YOU want one near your home?
    Well, Leo, would you?
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  6. #506
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    I KEEP forgetting that Jen, thanks for the reminder!


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  7. #507
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    Default Jenm

    What exactly do you mean by that?
    I assume it is tongue in cheek, and Jenn, that does not help at all.
    You know folks, both sides, I have not seen or read anything that is concrete and RECENT at all. other than the drugs, and truthfully, the drugs is not the issue. We do not eat horse, So if the EU wants to import drug tainted meat and sell it to europe that is their problem. Would seem to me that has been going on for a long time.
    The truth is, The people on here do not have the power to change the industry, I will not say what I have written before, you all know it. make changes in your small circle.
    I would be far more worried about what Monsanto is doing to our food.
    Just saying.
    I do not like to see horses in pain or mistreated nor do I like to see any creature or human suffer. I would say it is safe to say none of us do.
    But I ask once again, What does all this back and forth really do to change a thing? I am not making light of it, nor am I calling either side names. Just stating a fact. We can yell at each other all day, Copy and past things from the internet all day, but are we going to change the outcome of the process?
    I think not.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I am trying to be unemotional about this whole thing.
    I believe the mexican one with men prodding a horse onto the trailer that was taken last year is true. I Find the fact that ARA groups that pray on peoples kindness and decency, and the shock factor they implore hideous.
    Right after I read this an ad came on for UNICEF.
    Seriously Alyssa Milano could not look more serious or passionate!
    [and don't get me wrong I believe UNICEF does great things, the kid Trick or Treats for them every year cause the last thing this kid needs is candy!]

    Why do you think these agencies resort to these tactics?
    What successful agencies can you think of that don't?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Please tell us how many years ago this was,,,,
    Less years ago than the PETA killing pets incident was...that happened in 2005.


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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I am trying to be unemotional about this whole thing.
    I believe the mexican one with men prodding a horse onto the trailer that was taken last year is true. I Find the fact that ARA groups that pray on peoples kindness and decency, and the shock factor they implore hideous.
    I Want proof! Real proof. I am not saying there are not bad incidences, in fact to me the worst part of the whole slaughter thing is the transportation.
    That to me is far worse than the actual killing.
    The suffering for hours on end in those cattle trucks. That makes me sick.
    I am sorry you feel I am not discerning enough, I think emotion has to stay our of it. I love horses like I have said, but I do not trust a lot of what I see and read. on the internet. Make me believe differently.
    Look up Beltex FOIA . 906 pages of violations in an 11 month period at ONE us horse SH, when they were open here, just before they shut down.

    Also look up "pasture to plate" The videos of a Canadian horse SH that were forensically audited for truthfulness/lack of editing.

    Look up Temple Grandin lecture after viewing Canadian SH that she designed. One horse was stunned 11 times. Listen to how she stated that every time her back is turned, humane handling violations happen.


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  11. #511
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    Temple Grandin is a RARA plant always has been, I talked to her Professor and was told by his assistant it was the driving force behind her success. The whole thing was shopped. It's all a hoax.



  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    What exactly do you mean by that?
    I assume it is tongue in cheek, and Jenn, that does not help at all.
    ... are we going to change the outcome of the process?
    I think not.
    Of course it was tongue in cheek, hence the face with the rolling eyes and wink. Keep in mind, the main reason we are having this debate is because pro-slaughter folks have convinced our lawmakers that slaughter by captive bolt is synonymous with humane euthanasia and most horses sent to slaughter are old and lame. Shipping the meat anywhere is just a bonus from"euthanizing" the poor old horses.

    The day we stop trying to change the outcome is the day we let the horses down. Look into the eyes of a horse who was days away from being steak and perhaps you will understand.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  13. #513
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    Jets mom yes I have read those and seen those videos.
    I agree with Dr. Grandin. Who doesn't. But will it happen is my point.
    HAve you seen this one.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nknnBrIDRDE
    Jenm The horse does not know it is going to be steak. we know it.
    And I think talking about is cheap. I cannot see what we are accomplishing.
    What I want is the humane handling. I accept equine slaughter, I want the shipping and processing to be tightly regulated. And according to Dr. Grandin the USDA has gotten better.
    Or do you not have faith in her either?
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  14. #514
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    Well for me to form an educated opinion I need more information. Re USDA; "They have gotten better in the last 3 years." Better than what? Catching guys poking live cows with forklifts? Beating pigs with pipes? I need specific references and specified goals.


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  15. #515
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    Have you read this?
    Seems like the ball is already rolling.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ghter/2037347/
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Jets mom yes I have read those and seen those videos.
    I agree with Dr. Grandin. Who doesn't. But will it happen is my point.
    HAve you seen this one.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nknnBrIDRDE
    Jenm The horse does not know it is going to be steak. we know it.
    And I think talking about is cheap. I cannot see what we are accomplishing.
    What I want is the humane handling. I accept equine slaughter, I want the shipping and processing to be tightly regulated. And according to Dr. Grandin the USDA has gotten better.
    Or do you not have faith in her either?
    My faith in Dr Grandin is only eclipsed by my belief that money corrupts and that profits will always win out over humanity, when push comes to shove those with the most weight [money in their pockets] get to push and shove the hardest and get their way.
    They didn't comply before the plants in the US closed and there were no consequences.
    There is no motivation for them to comply with the old standards, not to mention do things even better, if they open new plants now.

    I agree talk is cheap.
    I have seen nothing but talk, that the product will be safer or what the buyer wants.
    I've seen nothing but talk that the plants and plant owner/managers really and truly want to do things better, more humanely.
    That goes against the very premise of their business.
    Better [slower, quieter, gentler, drug free] and Humane don't make money, fast makes money.


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  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Jets mom yes I have read those and seen those videos.
    I agree with Dr. Grandin. Who doesn't. But will it happen is my point.
    HAve you seen this one.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nknnBrIDRDE
    Jenm The horse does not know it is going to be steak. we know it.
    And I think talking about is cheap. I cannot see what we are accomplishing.
    What I want is the humane handling. I accept equine slaughter, I want the shipping and processing to be tightly regulated. And according to Dr. Grandin the USDA has gotten better.
    Or do you not have faith in her either?
    Well then, I suggest you place your hands firmly over your eyes, cover your ears and click your heels together three times. Because I don't think humane slaughter for horses is going to happen. Not without a crap load more oversight.

    You should live in Kentucky and see and hear what happens in the coal mines. We can't keep humans protected when money gets in the way (another "highly" regulated industry)...do you really think we can ensure humane slaughter?

    That's what it will take for Grandin to ever give her stamp of approval to another slaughterhouse, she said.

    "They better put in video auditing that is audited by a third party that can tune in at any time, so they never know when anyone's watching." Temple Gradin
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Jets mom yes I have read those and seen those videos.
    And your thoughts on them was.....?



  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Jenm The horse does not know it is going to be steak.
    Um, I realize that. Sorry the meaning behind my statement was lost on you.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Well then, I suggest you place your hands firmly over your eyes, cover your ears and click your heels together three times. Because I don't think humane slaughter for horses is going to happen. Not without a crap load more oversight.

    You should live in Kentucky and see and hear what happens in the coal mines. We can't keep humans protected when money gets in the way (another "highly" regulated industry)...do you really think we can ensure humane slaughter?

    hat's what it will take for Grandin to ever give her stamp of approval to another slaughterhouse, she said.

    "They better put in video auditing that is audited by a third party that can tune in at any time, so they never know when anyone's watching." Temple Gradin
    Look at the oil spill in ARkansas... those peoples homes are ruined... who will buy one of those houses in the future?
    And yet while Exxon makes MILLIONS per day the last time they had a spill like this the fine was... $200,000.
    Do you know what portion of the income per day for Exxon that represents?
    It's as close to 0 as you can get.

    Corporations and big business isn't about us, or the people, or being humane... it's about profits. And making the most profit usually involves making the least expenditures.
    Build new horse-centric plants? $$
    Testing for all banned drugs? $$
    safe and gentle handling... $$


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