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  1. #321
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    Sorry, Alagirl, I have no clue what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    If you are so well educated, you ought to know enough law to understand that what we are for or against is not really what should determine how all others may be required then to live by.
    I'm not sure what you mean, but government regulates MANY things. We need a license to drive, fly an airplane, own a gun, sell liquor, practice medicine, operate a daycare, etc. And that doesn't even include things that are illegal. I may believe that prostitution is fine between consenting adults, but that doesn't mean I can open up a brothel. And, if I sell heroin on a street corner, I can be arrested. To bring it closer to horses, dog fighting is illegal, even if that dog is someone else's property.

    Your example of the Catholic Church is especially odd because religion is protected by the constitution. There is no constitutional right to sell horses for slaughter. On the contrary, the BAN on horse slaughter has been found to be constitutional by the highest courts that have ruled on it.


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  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    Sorry, Alagirl, I have no clue what you are talking about.



    I'm not sure what you mean, but government regulates MANY things. We need a license to drive, fly an airplane, own a gun, sell liquor, practice medicine, operate a daycare, etc. And that doesn't even include things that are illegal. I may believe that prostitution is fine between consenting adults, but that doesn't mean I can open up a brothel. And, if I sell heroin on a street corner, I can be arrested. To bring it closer to horses, dog fighting is illegal, even if that dog is someone else's property.

    Your example of the Catholic Church is especially odd because religion is protected by the constitution. There is no constitutional right to sell horses for slaughter. On the contrary, the BAN on horse slaughter has been found to be constitutional by the highest courts that have ruled on it.
    I did tell you to pick your example, knew you probably would not get mine.

    Yes, the government regulates most we do and horse slaughter, according to many, including inspectors of slaughter plants, was one of the most regulated of all.
    Don't believe it?
    Proof is all the many pages of inspection reports, that animal rights extremists love to handpick thru for their propaganda.
    The system at work, that certain groups used for their own agenda.

    Would happen with any industry or plant or grocery store or hospital or any one place one of the richest non-profits will decide to make it's living off hounding.
    There, horse slaughter, next, well, follow the news and you will see the pattern, that has been going on for decades now.

    There are many layers in these onions.



  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karosel View Post
    She did go to the police. The police were involved, but I don't know the outcome. If I'm remembering correctly the dealer was banned from taking horses to that particular auction for a period of time.

    Yeah, there likely is more to the story (there always is!). I wasn't surprised when I read the article and saw that Glen Priest had lied about owning the horse for 6 months previous. And while I wasn't surprised about Mr. Priests and the vets involvement in the horse repo and sending to slaughter for vet bills it did make me raise my eyebrows and think to myself really Dr. XXX you couldn't use another route to get your money back or perhaps let it slide and write it off on your taxes? <shrug>
    Thank you for filling the story out, now it makes more sense.

    Don't know how things are in Canada, but here, when we saw at a sale the horse shoer that took local horses to the plant for people, one load at the time, that was six, in the same trailer his personal horses went to competitions, told us about some trader that pulled something and was banned from bringing any more.

    Maybe after this time they will ban that trader there?
    There are crooks every place, that doesn't make the place necessarily evil, really.



  4. #324
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    The "doesn't make the place necessarily evil" not only applies to slaughter houses, t it also applies HSUS and their effort to educate, expose and improve. And it applies to all who want to read and consider viewpoints on this topic.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor


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  5. #325
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    You conveniently forget about the what was it?? Oh yea the USDA report that stated there were too many misses. Is that not a governmental agency???

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I did tell you to pick your example, knew you probably would not get mine.

    Yes, the government regulates most we do and horse slaughter, according to many, including inspectors of slaughter plants, was one of the most regulated of all.
    Don't believe it?
    Proof is all the many pages of inspection reports, that animal rights extremists love to handpick thru for their propaganda.
    The system at work, that certain groups used for their own agenda.

    Would happen with any industry or plant or grocery store or hospital or any one place one of the richest non-profits will decide to make it's living off hounding.
    There, horse slaughter, next, well, follow the news and you will see the pattern, that has been going on for decades now.

    There are many layers in these onions.


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  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    The "doesn't make the place necessarily evil" not only applies to slaughter houses, t it also applies HSUS and their effort to educate, expose and improve. And it applies to all who want to read and consider viewpoints on this topic.
    Yes, I am aware of the HSUS latest effort at better PR, but I really don't think that a dye job is going to cover the stripes on the tiger too well, when it still is a tiger and acts like one.
    Pure window dressing, trumped by their actions when they lobby and push for annoyance lawsuits as they keep doing.


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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    You conveniently forget about the what was it?? Oh yea the USDA report that stated there were too many misses. Is that not a governmental agency???
    Since you bring the same over and over again, I will respond to that one more time.
    Those that object to my answering, remember, I didn't bring that up and have a right to answer when a response is clear.

    Here it is, again:
    Those are all management and regulation questions, that ANY business has to deal with.
    Do you ever read inspectors reports from your local restaurant or hospital?
    Really terrible all they find lacking, but those business don't have some of the largest non-profit organizations living off looking thru those reports with hordes of attorneys for all and any they can hand pick to use in their propaganda, where you got that.

    What "those we may not mention without offending some" and their followers keep bringing up is taken out of context, obvious to anyone not one of them, when it comes to wanting to brand slaughter as evil and call for a ban.
    Makes as much sense as handpicking inspection reports from restaurants or hospitals and pushing a drive to call all restaurants and hospital evil places, ban restaurants and hospitals, because see how badly they operate, the inspectors said so.

    When you think about that, you can see that maybe some are barking up the wrong tree there?

    Edited to keep certain posters happy.
    Last edited by Bluey; Apr. 4, 2013 at 04:34 PM.



  8. #328
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    A possible explaination:

    There are two types of imports:

    1. Horse that has an individual health certificate provided by the seller (would also include passport information) Many sellers include this information even including papers hoping the buyer will be a private owner rather than a KB

    2. Horse that is consigned as a lot to be included with a truck health certificate. This is one certificate for the whole trailer. It is usually comprised of horses known to have high drug contents in their system so they are imported for specific uses other than human consumption (generally and it would only be for a market that does no ban drugs in their meat) And the horses CAN NOT be resold. It must be slaughtered within 96 hours of its arrival to the plant.

    The individual health covered hroses MAY be resold however generally never to general public due to problems in the past.

    Example. Plant sold a horse that injured the "new" owner. They sued the plant for selling them a horse that was obviously sold to slaugthter because it was dangeous.

    The SP does not want individuals wandering around in fields. They do have specific showings to horse brokers, especially regarding the foals when they are weaned. They only want to do business with those they have a history with.

    The Stronach horse is still missing many facts and as I mentioned before, Stronach is in the process of founding a political party in Austria and he does not want ANY scandal attached to his name that could cause a problem with his seizing the role of Prime Minister.

    I have been told many of their horses have gone to kill buyers in the past. Some tracks have bans on any trainers selling to Kill auctions but definitely not all tracks. I do not know any of the alleged players named

    slaughter was never banned in the U.S.A. They just cut all the funding for the human food inspection.

    If they are going to apply numerous rules and regulations to endsure equine meat safety, that is a good thing. They also need to apply the same standards to all vegetables and truits that consistently have outbreaks of e-coli and salmonella especially alfalfa sprouts and all vegetables grown in the ground.

    The Huffington Post always talks about factory farms (they are proud THEY coined the phrase) and they blame all e-coli on contaminated meat therefore meat should be "removed".

    All of this comes down to zealots sucking people into the vegan family (or at least trying)



  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    You conveniently forget about the what was it?? Oh yea the USDA report that stated there were too many misses. Is that not a governmental agency???
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    What animal rights extremists and their followers keep bringing up is taken out of context
    Please explain how information on kill misses in an agency report can be taken out of context.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Since you bring the same over and over again, I will respond to that one more time.
    Those that object to my answering, remember, I didn't bring that up and have a right to answer when a response is clear.

    Here it is, again:
    Those are all management and regulation questions, that ANY business has to deal with.
    Do you ever read inspectors reports from your local restaurant or hospital?
    Really terrible all they find lacking, but those business don't have some of the largest non-profit organizations living off looking thru those reports with hordes of attorneys for all and any they can hand pick to use in their propaganda, where you got that.

    What animal rights extremists and their followers keep bringing up is taken out of context, obvious to anyone not one of them, when it comes to wanting to brand slaughter as evil and call for a ban.
    Makes as much sense as handpicking inspection reports from restaurants or hospitals and pushing a drive to call all restaurants and hospital evil places, ban restaurants and hospitals, because see how badly they operate, the inspectors said so.

    When you think about that, you can see that maybe some are barking up the wrong tree there?
    Well, some are certainly closed or banned due to poor operating procedures.

    Makes perfect sense to me. If a place of business has that many violations, then they need to suffer the consequences.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Since you bring the same over and over again, I will respond to that one more time.
    Those that object to my answering, remember, I didn't bring that up and have a right to answer when a response is clear.

    Here it is, again:
    Those are all management and regulation questions, that ANY business has to deal with.
    Do you ever read inspectors reports from your local restaurant or hospital?
    Really terrible all they find lacking, but those business don't have some of the largest non-profit organizations living off looking thru those reports with hordes of attorneys for all and any they can hand pick to use in their propaganda, where you got that.

    What animal rights extremists and their followers keep bringing up is taken out of context, obvious to anyone not one of them, when it comes to wanting to brand slaughter as evil and call for a ban.
    Makes as much sense as handpicking inspection reports from restaurants or hospitals and pushing a drive to call all restaurants and hospital evil places, ban restaurants and hospitals, because see how badly they operate, the inspectors said so.

    When you think about that, you can see that maybe some are barking up the wrong tree there?
    Animal Rights Extremists?


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  12. #332
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    I believe and would hope that all violations found by inspectors of restaurants and hospitals have to be remedied ASAP or huge fines and/or closure may follow.

    Haven't heard of that happening at the horse SH.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    . There is no constitutional right to sell horses for slaughter. On the contrary, the BAN on horse slaughter has been found to be constitutional by the highest courts that have ruled on it.

    The ban on horse slaughter...? Please direct me to Federal law Banning Slaughter of Equines.

    As I understand it Constitutional rights do not mention horses per se, but they are grouped under property rights.

    Where is the Constitutional mention of exclusion of any right to legally sell a horse, including for slaughter?

    Thank you.



  14. #334
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    I've worked in restaurants AND hospitals and if a restaurant is inpsected and gets a score below a certain level (and they are strict) -- they have a certain amount of time to correct it or shut down. It is also many times reported on the news in many cities as are their health ratings. It is public information. Hospitals are pretty much the same. It's public information and they have to toe the line or fix it quickly. I don't see the comparison at all.

    As far as all of us against killing horses in a slaughter house -- we are NOT necessarily "extremists" as those who are all for it constantly want to call us. It's not extreme to be against something like killing a horse for meat or helping any other animal through any means available. I think those for killing are apathetic and lazy and possibly unfeeling or lack compassion. Big surprise? Most of us don't support HSUS or PETA and quite aware of their failings -- we are pretty savvy about the rescues and the ones to which you constantly refer.

    PennyG


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  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    Well, some are certainly closed or banned due to poor operating procedures.

    Makes perfect sense to me. If a place of business has that many violations, then they need to suffer the consequences.
    I seem to see a pattern here, where you don't get what I am saying.
    Maybe I am not clear, maybe you are on purpose misunderstanding?

    I said those non-profit groups are using this or that time someone didn't do their job right and it is noted in some inspector reports to brand the WHOLE industry as evil, as banning ALL restaurants and hospitals, not just those that don't follow procedures and keep doing so, which is NORMAL procedures for any industry.

    Hope that is a bit more clear.



  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKR View Post
    I've worked in restaurants AND hospitals and if a restaurant is inpsected and gets a score below a certain level (and they are strict) -- they have a certain amount of time to correct it or shut down. It is also many times reported on the news in many cities as are their health ratings. It is public information. Hospitals are pretty much the same. It's public information and they have to toe the line or fix it quickly. I don't see the comparison at all.

    As far as all of us against killing horses in a slaughter house -- we are NOT necessarily "extremists" as those who are all for it constantly want to call us. It's not extreme to be against something like killing a horse for meat or helping any other animal through any means available. I think those for killing are apathetic and lazy and possibly unfeeling or lack compassion. Big surprise? Most of us don't support HSUS or PETA and quite aware of their failings -- we are pretty savvy about the rescues and the ones to which you constantly refer.

    PennyG
    See post above for an explanation.
    Think a bit more on what I said and you will see why your example is not what I was talking about.

    You think those that don't want a ban on horse slaughter are "I think those for killing are apathetic and lazy and possibly unfeeling or lack compassion."

    Right, starting again with the name calling.
    Well, I won't tell you what I think of those that are following certain groups agendas, if they realize it or not, by wanting to ban horse slaughter.



  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    The ban on horse slaughter...? Please direct me to Federal law Banning Slaughter of Equines.
    I didn't say there was a federal ban on horse slaughter. The highest courts that have ruled on the constitutionality of ANY BAN on horse slaughter are the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit (which found Illinois' 2007 ban on horse slaughter to be constitutional) and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit (which upheld an old Texas law banning horse slaughter). So that's what I meant when I wrote that "the BAN on horse slaughter has been found to be constitutional by the highest courts that have ruled on it." Do you understand how the court system works?



  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    I didn't say there was a federal ban on horse slaughter. The highest courts that have ruled on the constitutionality of ANY BAN on horse slaughter are the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit (which found Illinois' 2007 ban on horse slaughter to be constitutional) and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit (which upheld an old Texas law banning horse slaughter). So that's what I meant when I wrote that "the BAN on horse slaughter has been found to be constitutional by the highest courts that have ruled on it." Do you understand how the court system works?
    I don't know about the Illinois case, but the one in TX was a railroading of an old law the HSUS president bragged "his ten lawyers found in the books, after weeks of looking for something".
    Then found a sympathetic judge, that ruled that one law, intended to keep unscrupulous butchers from selling horse meat as beef, not to ban all sales of horse meat, could be interpreted as meaning a wholesale ban on horse meat in the state.

    No one has yet found reason to contest that ruling, as the ones that made it counted on, because, well, no one has needed to do so, but it is a tenuous interpretation.



  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I don't know about the Illinois case, but the one in TX was a railroading of an old law the HSUS president bragged "his ten lawyers found in the books, after weeks of looking for something".
    Then found a sympathetic judge, that ruled that one law, intended to keep unscrupulous butchers from selling horse meat as beef, not to ban all sales of horse meat, could be interpreted as meaning a wholesale ban on horse meat in the state.

    No one has yet found reason to contest that ruling, as the ones that made it counted on, because, well, no one has needed to do so, but it is a tenuous interpretation.
    Railroading? Is that anything like the myriad of violations and back fines they owed, the lack of taxes they paid and the general misery they caused their neighbors and that community as a whole? You mean that kind of 'railroading'?

    Thing is if you want people to want a Slaughter plant in their neighborhood, you should perhaps do a better job of being a good neighbor.

    Pretending there weren't problems and legitimate reasons to close the plants that were closed adds to the long list those of us carry of why we don't believe the pro-slaughter faction when they insist 'we'll do better this time, we promise! Just let us open a plant.'

    If there was nothing done wrong, why keep insisting it will be done better?
    And if it can be done better, why deny there were serious problems?


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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Railroading? Is that anything like the myriad of violations and back fines they owed, the lack of taxes they paid and the general misery they caused their neighbors and that community as a whole? You mean that kind of 'railroading'?

    Thing is if you want people to want a Slaughter plant in their neighborhood, you should perhaps do a better job of being a good neighbor.

    Pretending there weren't problems and legitimate reasons to close the plants that were closed adds to the long list those of us carry of why we don't believe the pro-slaughter faction when they insist 'we'll do better this time, we promise! Just let us open a plant.'

    If there was nothing done wrong, why keep insisting it will be done better?
    And if it can be done better, why deny there were serious problems?
    Why do you keep bringing the same story again, that has been discussed a million times?
    Yes, we know the plant had an old water treatment system, that had failed and been repaired many times.
    We know the plant was being run off the place and were not modernizing or doing more than maintenance and so it was having problems and fixing them and more problems.

    There are many plants of all kinds in the USA in the same situation and eventually will be closed.
    That is what happens with plants like that, be it slaughter or textile or manufacturing or whatever they are.
    BUT, those other plants don't have after them one of the richest non-profit group in the USA, with nothing else to do but hound all we do with our animals, as that plant had.
    THAT is the difference.

    They closed in 2007, what else do you want?



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