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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    In my experience, you will never get an answer to that question. Several of my questions regarding this topic have also gone ignored. What Bluey excels in is deflecting and then creating a diversion, a roundabout way to never have to address a sensitive topic.
    Yes. The question I asked wasn't *easy*, but Bluey apparently knows quite a lot about horse slaughter, and it would have been nice to get an idea of what she thinks.

    Simple: What would you (Bluey, or anyone else who is OK with it at least in theory, as am I) do to make horse slaughter more humane?
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    No, welfare is trying to do what we do with our animals the best way we know how.

    Ban slaughter is what animal rights extremists, for lack of a better way to name them, do as part of their drives to eventually eliminate all uses of animals by humans.

    That is an important difference some seem to muddle repeatedly.
    There are things that are banned because the act/process is inhumane or culturally unacceptable. Children getting married is banned/illegal, because it is culturally unacceptable. Yet in some cultures, taking child brides is ok.
    Horse tripping is banned, even though the purpose of it isn't to intentionally abuse the horse. Yet enough horses are injured by it that it has been banned.
    Dog fighting is ok in some countries, yet it is banned here. No one fights their dog and hopes it gets injured or dies. Yet enough do, that it is considered inhumane and banned.
    Canned hunts are banned in some states, because it is considered cruel, yet those same states still allow hunting. Banning one act, hasn't stopped the other.

    The horse slaughter process starting with auction, transport, feedlots, and the actual SH, are filled with inhumane acts, that cause suffering. The industry is also filled with fraud, from falsified EIDs, deceptive means of acquiring horses, intimidating inspectors/(USDA vets when we had it here). That's not even taking into account the drug issue.

    Bluey, did you fight against people so hard when they were trying to ban horse tripping? Because, all of your arguments could easily be applied to that issue as well, regarding banning practices, slippery slope arguments, etc.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Wrong, horses are a natural, renewable resource, but it is ok to disagree.

    Now, does anyone know any more about this story, if the plant did get notice someone wanted that horse in time, or not?
    Once an for all they are not a NATURAL resource. Why are you so stubborn? I've asked you before to show me anywhere in the Ag industry that calls livestock natural. Show me, prove it!

    It's just anti propaganda you are spouting which makes you no different than the Raras.

    ETA okay I did not say anywhere, I said reputable.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    There are things that are banned because the act/process is inhumane or culturally unacceptable. Children getting married is banned/illegal, because it is culturally unacceptable. Yet in some cultures, taking child brides is ok.
    Horse tripping is banned, even though the purpose of it isn't to intentionally abuse the horse. Yet enough horses are injured by it that it has been banned.
    Dog fighting is ok in some countries, yet it is banned here. No one fights their dog and hopes it gets injured or dies. Yet enough do, that it is considered inhumane and banned.
    Canned hunts are banned in some states, because it is considered cruel, yet those same states still allow hunting. Banning one act, hasn't stopped the other.

    The horse slaughter process starting with auction, transport, feedlots, and the actual SH, are filled with inhumane acts, that cause suffering. The industry is also filled with fraud, from falsified EIDs, deceptive means of acquiring horses, intimidating inspectors/(USDA vets when we had it here). That's not even taking into account the drug issue.

    Bluey, did you fight against people so hard when they were trying to ban horse tripping? Because, all of your arguments could easily be applied to that issue as well, regarding banning practices, slippery slope arguments, etc.
    That is all you know to do, when you run out of sensible arguments, come back with the equivalent of you eat puppies for breakfast and "how many times do you beat your wife every day?"

    No, slaughter is a perfectly good way to, sorry, use one more of our natural, renewable resources, that humans have use for millennia.

    I know that those groups I can't mention here without giving some heartburn use any that may or they have incited as abuse for their propaganda, but have already explained that is not so.

    You are free to believe that, of course, just as I hope I am free to say you are choosing to ignore all that slaughter was just one more business and as good or bad as the ones managing it, just as any other out there.

    Horse slaughter is already one of the most regulated out there, but be my guest to work for more regulation.
    Ban it?
    Only those following certain groups would think that makes sense, as per most people I know, including many in the horse business.



  5. #245
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    Horses are not natural I don't care how many times you lie to yourself that they are, indeed they are not.



  6. #246
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    Concise but to the point.

    natural resources plural of nat·u·ral re·sources
    Noun
    Materials or substances such as minerals, forests, water, and fertile land that occur in nature and can be used for economic gain.



  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietann View Post
    Yes. The question I asked wasn't *easy*, but Bluey apparently knows quite a lot about horse slaughter, and it would have been nice to get an idea of what she thinks.

    Simple: What would you (Bluey, or anyone else who is OK with it at least in theory, as am I) do to make horse slaughter more humane?
    I have answered that one before, I didn't have the foggiest idea what you were talking about there.

    Slaughter is not inhumane, that already tells me you are not going to listen to anything I say, you already swallowed that propaganda.
    Slaughter is sad, is killing, is "disgusting", but it is one of the most regulated of all slaughter, is only one more process we use for, well, get one more use of horses, lets not get some set off again there and it is as good as all we do, better when well managed, has it's failures for all kinds of reasons.

    Do you expect every operation in a hospital is perfect?
    Do you have the largest non-profit group in the world spending all their millions to stop hospitals and operations, because they are not perfect, not only that, many times people are killed there?

    Right.

    The slaughter process, regulations and management, that is like all other, a work in progress and getting better all the time.
    Then, with the onslaught against them from certain groups and their followers, well, everything they do is going to be from suspect to, as in the case of this one horse here everyone keeps forgetting, made an example for their agenda to ban slaughter, as part of eliminating all uses of animals, eventually.

    Many here are myopic, only have their sights on this issue, are not aware of those certain groups out there and their assault on all we do with animals out there.
    Maybe that is why you are so cavalier about this ban slaughter agenda.



  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Horses are not natural I don't care how many times you lie to yourself that they are, indeed they are not.
    There was someone a while back that was insisting domesticated horses were not natural.
    I wonder if that was you also?



  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Can someone explain to me why the slaughter plants [who is the speaker of the above quote in the article, I assume] and several pro-slaughterers here on COTH keep insisting that there's only a 6 month ban on bute, when everything I've found says it's a drug that is never to be used in animals for human consumption?
    .
    That's a really good question. Even if there were something scientific that showed bute residue was no longer in the system after six months, it appears that most if not all horses sent to slaughter are killed pretty quickly. I'm not sure where this six month number came from.

    Packages of wormer also have "not to be used for animals intended for food". I'm guessing BSB must not have ever been wormed as well....
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Do you expect every operation in a hospital is perfect?
    Do you have the largest non-profit group in the world spending all their millions to stop hospitals and operations, because they are not perfect, not only that, many times people are killed there?

    Right.

    The slaughter process, regulations and management, that is like all other, a work in progress and getting better all the time.
    Then, with the onslaught against them from certain groups and their followers, well, everything they do is going to be from suspect to, as in the case of this one horse here everyone keeps forgetting, made an example for their agenda to ban slaughter, as part of eliminating all uses of animals, eventually.

    Many here are myopic, only have their sights on this issue, are not aware of those certain groups out there and their assault on all we do with animals out there.
    Maybe that is why you are so cavalier about this ban slaughter agenda.
    First of all your analogy of operations in hospitals not being perfect is as bad as when you say we should ban driving because of drunk drivers. Do people die while being operated on? Of course. Do they suffer and feel pain when if an operation goes awry? Probably not if the anesthesiologist has done their job properly.

    Second,as for the slaughter process getting better all the time? Nice try. If that were the case, stories like this would no longer surface:

    http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?se...cal&id=8780843

    FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- Federal regulators have shut down a Central California slaughterhouse after receiving undercover video showing dairy cows, some unable to walk, being repeatedly shocked and shot before being killed.

    Third, I think most of my comrades are aware of the ultimate agenda of animal rights activists wanting to ban any use of animals by humans. We get it. However, as I have pointed out in the past, the last time slaughter was halted in the U.S. I'm pretty sure the RARAs did not start going after boarding stables or show grounds and harassing the owners about animal cruelty and how they were going to make sure no human was ever allowed to ride or groom a horse ever again.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    First of all your analogy of operations in hospitals not being perfect is as bad as when you say we should ban driving because of drunk drivers. Do people die while being operated on? Of course. Do they suffer and feel pain when if an operation goes awry? Probably not if the anesthesiologist has done their job properly.

    Second,as for the slaughter process getting better all the time? Nice try. If that were the case, stories like this would no longer surface:

    http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?se...cal&id=8780843

    FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) -- Federal regulators have shut down a Central California slaughterhouse after receiving undercover video showing dairy cows, some unable to walk, being repeatedly shocked and shot before being killed.

    Third, I think most of my comrades are aware of the ultimate agenda of animal rights activists wanting to ban any use of animals by humans. We get it. However, as I have pointed out in the past, the last time slaughter was halted in the U.S. I'm pretty sure the RARAs did not start going after boarding stables or show grounds and harassing the owners about animal cruelty and how they were going to make sure no human was ever allowed to ride or groom a horse ever again.
    Do you listen to the national news?
    They just found a whole school system cheating to get bonuses.
    I don't see anyone wanting to ban all school districts because someone, somewhere cheated.

    Oh, that is not a good example you say?
    How about all those rescues starving horses and mismanaging their finances?
    Lets ban all rescues would be the equivalent of calling for slaughter bans because someone, somewhere finds abuse.

    I wonder how many of those abuse cases, documented by certain groups, we could, if looking deep enough, to be like the circus abuse, where those groups gave the one fellow $100,000+ to lie about the abuse there?



  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Honey, I have been called all kinds of things in the last 6 or 7 years.

    It wears thin. And yes, it was always with the implication that since I do not support the ban I could possibly not care for animals.
    yes, plenty of personal digs.

    and oh my, guess what?

    Every time. every.single.time. certain people are called out on their lack of a) knowledge; b) lack of facts; c) outright...well, can't say it here or I'll be accused of name calling, wouldn't want that now...utter nonsense they switch the subject, divert attention, throw in a few personal digs that are very thinly veiled personal attacks and we rinse. lather, repeat until we reach the same strawman 'argument' again.

    Now, it is a moon thing.
    we used to have one of these themed amusements every single month, one week before Full Moon. Yes, we had them long enough and often enough that I actually bothered to keep track of it.

    The next thing I am expecting to be brought up - again - would be the fact that I do not own a horse. Which LauraKY has beaten like the proverbial dead horse for a good while now. Care to comment on that?

    Fact is the argument against slaughter is less sturdy than a house of cards.
    Every single time the pebbles are pulled from the foundation it's reduced to rhetoric (from PETA and HSUS) and emotions.

    Emotions are fine. But the way you feel has little or no bearing on how I conduct business.
    Pretty simply put: if it does not affect you stay out of it.


    On the other hand the anti slaughter/pro ban demands do affect the whole of the industry. And not in a positive way.

    Bluey and myself have pointed that out, before the plants closed down.
    If it would not be such a sad state of affairs it would be fun to say 'we told you so', and that was well before the economy collapsed.

    Oh, right: Bluey was called a liar for saying that horses got turned lose to fend for themselves. Did not happen.
    Well, it did, it does.
    She got called a liar for telling people how the closure of the plants affected the market where she lives.
    nah, didn't happen. because the handful of ladies who live where the pastures are always green (or in an apartment above the garage in mid town for all I know) don't see it in their MLP world.

    Never let some facts get in a way of a good cause, right!
    Wow, And Why should I be surprised at your curt arrogant answer!
    You know what Alagirl, Simply put?? Stay out of it?? REally is that what you said? That is just the kind of answer I expected. And guess what? It does affect me, because you just told me to stay out of it. WOW, Just amazing.
    You really do not want to see anything but your own views, And why should any of us who are involved with horses even have any respect for what you say? I still ask and expect I suppose the same answer. What gives you Carte Blanche? It just floors me. The two of you will continue to call us all Mean and evil. There is nothing constructive going on in any of these threads because you both refuse to have a decent conversation.
    Well carry on, because for whatever reason, this seems to be your only source of entertainment.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #253
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    Bluey, the schools aren't asking for School Gag laws to prevent whistleblowers. Nor are rescues. It's the slaughter houses and factory farms.

    Rescues and hoarders are outed all the time, and usually the only ones who defend them are those that are intimately involved or those who don't think they could have been wrong in their evaluation of the rescue/hoarder.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Wow, And Why should I be surprised at your curt arrogant answer!
    You know what Alagirl, Simply put?? Stay out of it?? REally is that what you said? That is just the kind of answer I expected. And guess what? It does affect me, because you just told me to stay out of it. WOW, Just amazing.
    You really do not want to see anything but your own views, And why should any of us who are involved with horses even have any respect for what you say? I still ask and expect I suppose the same answer. What gives you Carte Blanche? It just floors me. The two of you will continue to call us all Mean and evil. There is nothing constructive going on in any of these threads because you both refuse to have a decent conversation.
    Well carry on, because for whatever reason, this seems to be your only source of entertainment.
    Hey, didn't you just tell Alagirl to stay out of it yourself, while complaining that she was telling you to quit with the personal attacks?
    Who is the one calling some "Mean and evil"?
    Yes, those that are anti slaughter call that those that don't think banning slaughter makes sense.



  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I have answered that one before, I didn't have the foggiest idea what you were talking about there.

    Slaughter is not inhumane, that already tells me you are not going to listen to anything I say, you already swallowed that propaganda.
    OK. Let me restate this. It's mostly what happens before a horse gets to the slaughterhouse that bothers me.

    (and I just got rid of the rest of this, because I don't think it's productive for me or anyone else to give Bluey bait at this point.)
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #256
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    I think everyone should stop playing the victim. No more name calling. If you have something to present as fact, a source would be nice.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Bluey, the schools aren't asking for School Gag laws to prevent whistleblowers. Nor are rescues. It's the slaughter houses and factory farms.

    Rescues and hoarders are outed all the time, and usually the only ones who defend them are those that are intimately involved or those who don't think they could have been wrong in their evaluation of the rescue/hoarder.
    Does that mean you think those mislabeled laws are wrong?
    Laws that intend to regulate how long certain groups, that shall not be named, can hold onto known abuse proof, for their propaganda purposes, letting the supposed abuse keep ongoing, rather than, as anyone else with any sense would do, go immediately to the authorities?

    Riiiight.



  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietann View Post
    OK. Let me restate this. It's mostly what happens before a horse gets to the slaughterhouse that bothers me.

    (and I just got rid of the rest of this, because I don't think it's productive for me or anyone else to give Bluey bait at this point.)
    One quick answer, to follow ban drives, here ban horse slaughter, doesn't make sense but to those following certain ideologies of some groups not to be named here.

    What you are asking there is working to make the process better, which is part of laws and regulations we already have and that can keep being altered as needed.



  19. #259
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    WHY in God's name do all you pro-killers think that everything said against killing horses for profit is "propaganda" and lump anyone who is against it with PETA or HSUS? REALLY?? Your usual rationalization is *BS* as is that. It's ONLY propaganda if it doesn't fit the pro-killers and it's ONLY uninformed, crazies that are against any form of horse useage that are anti-killers. Get over it! We ARE informed the difference is WE CARE! We don't believe horses are food animals or should be treated as such for any reason on any level. This "always been done" is also *BS* -- so what? Just because something has been done wrong or IS wrong over and over doesn't give it a leg to stand on or make it right. GET IT??? Animal activists and many of the groups who sincerely care and make efforts to halt abuses, killing wildlife ad nauseum and expose the crap do a helluva lot more good than you rationalizers will EVER do! Making a difference and getting a better result is only done when you have dedicated people willing to make the effort and not just live with what's easy or same-o same-o. Because we have passion and will swim against the current and try to help animals is the only thing that will make it change. You can put labels on us, criticize or try to minimize those efforts, but the truth is you really don't give a fat rat's arse about anything but the easy way along the well-beaten path already worn out. I'd much rather be out there fighting for change and protection than sitting back doing nothing but criticizing those efforts and those who make them. Damned right I'm a radical if that's the label -- proud to be part of a change for the better. Can't never could, as my Mama would say and nothing gets done without effort and passion. Accepting any less is not acceptable. What's so great about being pro-killer and accepting it as the only solution? I'm NOT ok with using them, enjoying them, loving them, caring for them and then just grinding them up and eating them!
    PennyG


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Wow, And Why should I be surprised at your curt arrogant answer!
    You know what Alagirl, Simply put?? Stay out of it?? REally is that what you said? That is just the kind of answer I expected. And guess what? It does affect me, because you just told me to stay out of it. WOW, Just amazing.
    You really do not want to see anything but your own views, And why should any of us who are involved with horses even have any respect for what you say? I still ask and expect I suppose the same answer. What gives you Carte Blanche? It just floors me. The two of you will continue to call us all Mean and evil. There is nothing constructive going on in any of these threads because you both refuse to have a decent conversation.
    Well carry on, because for whatever reason, this seems to be your only source of entertainment.


    I think you have it backwards.
    it is your new friends who seem to insist that because Bluey and I do not believe in a ban we sell horses wholesale to slaughter.

    Yes, it has been intimated in the past.

    Yes, it does not concern you if the guy next door sells his nondescript horse to a dealer in cheap horses.

    it is non of your business.

    Simply put.

    However, those who have no grasp of basic economy should pretty please stop meddling before we all suffer dearly.
    but since they have no concept, cannot grasp anything that does not happen within their narrow view....good grief. we are doomed.

    That goes from transport restrictions
    (which reminds me: if it is illegal to transport a sick or lame horse...are you prepared to pay the fine when you haul Dobbins to the clinic?), to export restrictions to bans which all will have consequences.
    Consequences far past what we deep reasonable and they will affect the regular horse owner.
    Why, you should ask? Because the people getting rich off the 'debate' have it written on their banners to make it impossible for anyone to keep horses.

    Yes, Bluey is lying when she says that...because it's not on the website your new friends take all their arguments from.....

    Sorry, I do not call you and your happy bunch mean.
    I have a few choice ideas, but mean is not a one of them.
    They are like the bully on the school grounds: First to cry foul when paid back in like coin! Which they have proven time and time again.

    They love to dish it out, but can't take it in return.

    Now, since you took objection to me poking fun at the facts (which were BTW in my favor, not yours) I had to laugh quiet hard when one gentleman suggested that humor and animal fat might be linked....nah, you don't know him, he's not from COTH land.....

    Fact
    4
    a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact>
    b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>

    5
    : a piece of information presented as having objective reality
    in fact : in truth


    You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

    But it's the dog chasing it's tail. We play musical chairs with the arguments but the chairs never go away...

    and yet...Bluey plays.

    Why? I am assuming because she knows that when the dominoes fall there won't be any second chances for you or me to own another horse.
    because we would simply not be rich enough to afford it...if it was still allowed that is.

    you think this is an amusing game?
    Really?
    This round about blame game, the call for unattainable standards?
    The call for taxing the industry to death, by the groups who have gained millions by the conflict?

    http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S5013-2011

    read this bill

    no, it's not about slaughter, but it is the same groups at work! Trying to ban ownership of horses, one baby step at a time.

    No, by any means, do not listen to the people who tell you how the game is being played.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=277091
    do nothing wrong and still be in the hot chair.

    be legislated out of your livelihood, because some dissatisfied housewife from NYC has no other hobbies:
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=293707

    Maybe I can dig up the thread about the Basset kennel being raided by some well meaning group or another, coercing the owner to sign the dogs over, black mailing them....oh my....evil breeders, right!


    No, you don't have to listen to us.
    Listen to your new best buddies.
    they have all the answers, don't they....

    except, they don't.
    I mean, they got ideas....but never one on how to ay for it.
    Except it won't be them.



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