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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    We read books all the TIME by people who have killed as soldiers in war--"American Sniper" and "Matterhorn" come immediately to mind. No problem!

    Murder, along with everything from prostitution to questionable parenting, is a valid part of the overall palette of human experience; since we are constantly "entertained" by murder in every other medium, how would reading such a book be essentially different than watching a movie about Jack the Ripper?

    Whether or not the miscreant should profit by relating his adventures, is, of course, a different ethical question.
    and again, killing in combat, part of law enforcement, accident, dispute, and so forth are at all the same thing. Not even close.


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  2. #42
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    No, I have not read her books since I learned that.

    And she only disclosed this fact when media was going to press with it years ago.

    Anyone that could do this at 15? Is no different now. Situation just hasn't arisen again where she would do it.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belle Beach View Post
    Anyone that could do this at 15? Is no different now. Situation just hasn't arisen again where she would do it.
    What are your credentials that you feel qualified to make that (uneducated and silly)statement? Do you know for a fact that the situation "just hasn't" arisen again?
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  4. #44
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    I am very qualified to make assessments. You are mixing a number of factors tho, BB.

    One is risk assessment. We take into account a number of factors that elevate risk of reoffense, and then look at any potential factors that would moderate these risks. We don't have to know exactly what will occur, but look at variables that do appear to increase risk, and thos that are known to mitigage it.

    The other is appropriate diagnostic assessment. This is a subset of a subset (ie people who have caused the death of others, a small group, and then a subset of that group, those who have premeditated that death). Distinguishing and diagnosising is really important (and very much related to risk assessment). But typically with these folks (and of course, having never met/see this person it very well may not apply at all) , you find a prominent lack of regard for the welfare of others, little empathy,minimization of responsibility, shallow emotions and so on. That is NOT the case for everyone involved in a death,particuarly those that are accidental, combat related and so on.

    Risk of recidivism is not the only factor, as noted, that underscores what kind of response society will determine appropriate. Sometimes, society just wants to signal that some behaviors are not okay, if you want to keep playing with others.

    I am actually not at all a lock 'em all up kind of girl, I do not believe in warehousing and I believe very much in atonement. I am not a DP fan.

    But still, not interested in reading novels by this person.


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    I'd only read more if I were still in the business of prosecuting criminals. I always wanted to know what is in the mind of a murderer. And why most of them have no remorse. But I wonder why the author was not sued to prevent her from profiting from the killing?

    You never know who might be sitting next to you. In Atlanta, a woman worked with a social services group, and came to some meetings that some of us attended. The newspaper later outted her as a woman who had killed her boyfriend's wife with a hatchet. A Texas jury had acquitted her of murder. She changed her name and moved to Atlanta. The cheating husband must have decided he might be next for the hatchet, so he left her after she murdered his wife.
    Are you talking about Candy Montgomery? One of my friends was hired for the murdered woman's teaching job. How she was acquitted is a mystery.



  6. #46
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    Id be more inclined to read the books than let my kids have riding lessons from someone who plotted to kill their mother. (per wiki the other girl is a riding instructor)



  7. #47
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    I've read Anne Perry's books, and enjoyed some. I've also found her background disgusting, and was morally torn about reading the books. I've never read Norman Mailer's work and never intend to, because I find his background even more disturbing. If you commit a certain level of crime - rape, murder, torture - it is legitimate for individuals to take a personal or societal toll which is separate from the legal sentence. OJ Simpson is probably the best famous example - he may have been acquitted of butchering his ex-wife and a waiter, but he's been poison in the wider world ever since. Legally speaking, it's utterly unfair because he went through the process and was acquitted. But the law is just a reflection; it was created to codify the moral sense of humans living in society. That moral sense still applies, with or without the agreement of law. Which is why Michael Vick will never live down his crimes. You break the covenant, you don't just risk your life or your freedom, you risk being cast out of the tribe. We all pay for our actions. Most of the time, our payment is higher and far less deserved than in the case of a murderer who did her time. Idiot teenager sleeps with boyfriend, gets AIDS. Idiot teenager runs a red light, kills three people. They're all left with those results. Why insist the slate be artificially cleaned for the most serious transgressors?


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  8. #48
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    well, if you look at the crime she committed, it's a very childish one- the motive wasn't to get money or anything like that, it was to prevent her best friend from moving away. Very teenager-like to overreact to something like that. An adult with fully formed frontal lobes wouldn't react that way. The "elaborate plot" to kill the mother was also very childish and poorly thought out- no alibis, no effort to hide the body, nothing.
    It was an act of an impulsive teenager, not a cold-blooded killer.



  9. #49
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    Gah. A 15-year-old isn't a 5-year-old. The MURDER was premeditated.

    I really wish you would quit pretend-reading scientific articles and then posting on the internet about it.


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  10. #50
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    Sigh. premeditation is not always EFFECTIVE but it shows that this was not a tragic end to a heat of moment fight, or a drunken miscalculation. As such, it differs greatly from teens who run red lights (Laura Bush, I think). And yes, adults most certainly commit premeditated crimes, some more sophisticated than others. Society does indeed treat these differently (as they are different). The assumption is that most people do not refrain from killing others only because its illegal, but because we have a moral sense that its not nice to do that. However, there are individuals who do not have the brakes most of us have, and society does have an interest in identifying these folks.

    In any case, it is an interesting question. I can, however, assure you grayarabpony that I don't have to "pretent read" any kind of articles, or post them anywhere. At the end of the day, great that this person has not reoffended, but just noting why I am not enthusiastic about reading the novels in question.
    Last edited by lilitiger2; Mar. 31, 2013 at 03:38 PM. Reason: spelling



  11. #51
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    No, not if I was aware of it and the books were themed around murder or other crime. I'd feel weird reading that knowing what they had done. Although, I have given this some thought previously, and I am a little freaked anyway by the nasty, twisted stuff some people can come up with in their imaginations

    So to know that that wasn't necessarily all imagination does make me not want to read that book, and not necessarily (for me) anything to do with whether the author has paid his or her debt to society for their crimes. (Yes, yes, I'm a big wimpy softy about reading gore/true murders/horror, anything like that).

    For a while I dated a guy who's father had murdered his mother. Guy was still close to his father and I met him and his new wife a few times but I was never really comfortable being around him.



  12. #52
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    Interesting discussion, once you get past some of the out there replies. I've never read any of her books, and don't know that I really have a strong opinion one way or the other on reading them.

    But I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "boycotting" her books because of a past crime for which she fulfilled her assigned punishment of the justice system that she lived under at the time. It seems to me that in the big picture, this is a contributor to how we end up with career criminals - if after you serve a jail sentence for a crime, no one will associate with or hire you, it's very easy to see your only option as returning to crime as a means to support yourself.

    I can certainly understand the feeling that there is no way to sufficiently punish murder, and that there is nothing she can do within her lifetime to "make up for" what she did. But it seems like if you really believe that to be true, we should just opt for automatic capital punishment in murder cases. There is nothing she can do to undo the bad decision that she made as a 15 year old, but I'm not sure I would agree that ruining or ending her life is the correct answer either.

    Truly I think this is one of those quandaries with no right or wrong answers.


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookah View Post
    But I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "boycotting" her books because of a past crime for which she fulfilled her assigned punishment of the justice system that she lived under at the time. It seems to me that in the big picture, this is a contributor to how we end up with career criminals - if after you serve a jail sentence for a crime, no one will associate with or hire you, it's very easy to see your only option as returning to crime as a means to support yourself.

    .
    Yes, which, when people think of this, demonstrates good reasoning ability ("I'd sure like to whack my boss but if I do....well, there'll be years in prison and I'll probably lose my wife and then...who'll hire me?") I had a client who had killed his GF in a drunken fight, and, after a very long stretch in prison was out and thinking of dating again. As he was contemplating the challenge of finding women who would find a guy who killed his previous GF attractive, he said,"This is the kind of thing I should have thought about, if I was doing any thinking!!"

    There are no easy answers and of course I find it interesting as it is obviously close to home for me! And again, we are talking about a (thankfully) small subset of a small subset - those who have rationally (which is why there are assessments for mental capacity and emotional functioning and so forth) contemplated killing someone and decided to do it. Personality disorder traits are pretty enduring, unfortunately.

    as far as what to do about it, also a never ending question. Society does have an interest in segregating those who have demonstrated they have no emotional brakes, even if they are pretty likely to NOT reoffend (the guy who says, "i've always wanted to see what it was like to kill someone and now I have. Im crippled now so I can't reoffend anyway, so, can't we just call it good? I'll be a nice boy/girl, I promise!") Are we okay with that?

    and of course, there are always the pervasive criminal justice issues - you are way more likely to end up on death row if you kill white people, sentencing disparities are still glaring - ain't no "and justice for all" at this point!!!!


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  14. #54
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    I have read all her books and enjoyed most of them.

    I did not know her history when I read them. I will say that her books are all about justice (both her series use protagonists who are policemen or detectives) so the do not glorify murder.

    I guess I prefer to evaluate them as books, rather on the actions of the author. If she had written about the murder she and her friend committed, I would not buy that book. I don't buy any books that are written by criminals trying to profit from their actions.

    Obviously, everyone should make their own decision about what authors they want to support based on their own criteria.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilitiger2 View Post
    Sigh. premeditation is not always EFFECTIVE but it shows that this was not a tragic end to a heat of moment fight, or a drunken miscalculation. As such, it differs greatly from teens who run red lights (Laura Bush, I think). And yes, adults most certainly commit premeditated crimes, some more sophisticated than others. Society does indeed treat these differently (as they are different). The assumption is that most people do not refrain from killing others only because its illegal, but because we have a moral sense that its not nice to do that. However, there are individuals who do not have the brakes most of us have, and society does have an interest in identifying these folks.

    In any case, it is an interesting question. I can, however, assure you grayarabpony that I don't have to "pretent read" any kind of articles, or post them anywhere. At the end of the day, great that this person has not reoffended, but just noting why I am not enthusiastic about reading the novels in question.
    lilitiger I was responding to wendy, not you! lol


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  16. #56
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    Cloudy-I read the true crime book about the hatchet murder, and was totally mystified how this woman was found not guilty. However, it sounds as if the husband finally got a clue and left.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    lilitiger I was responding to wendy, not you! lol
    thanks GAP - I wish I COULD "pretend read" a lot of the materials I have to review!



  18. #58
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    Murder mystery books written by an actual murderer? No. If the person was really and truly horrified by what s/he had done, they would not then base their career on creating multiple "fantasy" murders. I mean, if you were truly ashamed of what you had done, wouldn't you try to distance yourself from all things murder in general? Sick.

    And all the people saying it was just a stupid teenage thing--Seriously?!?! Bashing someone's head twenty times with a brick is a stupid teenage thing? No. Shoplifting a $15 item on a dare, drinking too much beer and sleeping with some random person, smoking marijuana--those are stupid teenage things. Murder is not in that category, nor is rape.


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  19. #59
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    The Apostle Paul was forgiven for murder, was he just to be an exception?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    I don't know - she took a life. Why should she get to go on to have a happy one?

    Life in prison, or death. You take a life, you give up yours, one way or another.

    Murder isn't a childish indiscretion that should be forgiven.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The Apostle Paul was forgiven for murder, was he just to be an exception?
    I think you have me confused with some sort of Christian...
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
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