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  1. #41
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    Paulaedwina, I think the housing market FOLLOWED the dual incomes. I see it as a domino effect: women go to college and run up student loans. Then they have to get a job to pay back the loans, if nothing else. Then they get married and can afford a more expensive house.

    If people stayed in single-income housing and did not buy the higher priced houses, builder would build smaller, more affordable homes.

    It's all in what a woman wants to work toward: a big home with a mortgage to match; or, a relaxed, slower way of life staying home with her children.
    Last edited by ezduzit; Mar. 30, 2013 at 04:12 PM.


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  2. #42
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    So well said and absolutely true.

    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    This thread makes me sad. Nobody should be belittled for the choices they make, as long as those choices make the person and their family happy. We bemoan the loss of social values and personal responsibility, we bitch about teachers having to 'raise' kids for parents who don't care, but when a parent chooses to stay home and be the main care giver, we think them worthless. Nice.


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  3. #43
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    I DID take a 2 hour nap when the kids were sleeping or before they go home from school. My day started @ 5:30 a.m. and ended around 10 at night. Nothing wrong or shameful about recharging the batteries half way thru. And sometime I did NOTHING all day but read or knit or ride my horse. I usually had my *weekend off* it just was the traditional Sat/Sun arrangement. I don't see why so many people on this subject are so judgmental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windsor1 View Post
    I don't know if you're alluding to my post with this (I didn't see any other comment that even remotely resembled it), but if you are you misread it. What I said about moms being able to take a two-hour break while the kiddies are napping doesn't mean I think that all moms actually DO that. But in an office that isn't even an option unless you're looking to get fired.

    And my comment was also a direct response to another poster who seemed to suggest that office-job moms could simply hit "send to voicemail" and keep painting their fingernails or chatting with coworkers or whatever, which, frankly, is also kind of offensive. People in offices often have fires to put out, too. They just don't involve kids.



  4. #44
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    Wow, people think I'm affluent! Who knew??? I feel we are solidly middle class. People in NYC probably think I'm poor white. I totally agree with Ezduzit. My efforts in the home are what make it possible for my husband to work the long hard hours he does.

    There are trade-offs. I no longer get mani-pedis every month like I did when it was just DD and myself. But DD takes skating lessons. I grow or barter for lots of our fruits and veggies. I bartered meat for a western saddle for DD. Part of being a grown up means having to make decisions about what is important and what is just window dressing

    But I also am able to volunteer in the community and school way more than if I had to have a job. I am the parent that always has a car load of kids headed somewhere simply because I don't have to get off work before going to an activity. I'm never off work. We have an employee right now that owns a home and is supporting a wife and 3 kids on right around $40k/year. His wife could work, but loves being able to volunteer in the school, and take care of her family. They have one older car they paid $3000 for.

    You don't have to have cable, you don't have to have an i-phone, you don't have to have the latest, trendiest clothes. Our big splurge this year was a new infant carrier/ stroller for the one due in June. Living on one income doesn't mean that the income has to be huge, but it does mean that you can't try and keep up with the Jones.

    I don't understand the need to belittle people for choosing a different path in life
    From AliCat518 "Seriously, why would you NOT put fried chicken in your purse?!"


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  5. #45
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    Are you suggesting, via this question, that you REALLY DON'T KNOW the difference????

    How sad that you can't envision a mutually satisfying marriage; that you can't envision true commitment where neither party has put up barriers for their own protection.

    How pitifully sad. Your generation has lost so much.


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  6. #46
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    Sorry, forgot the quote from OP. My comments are in response to her comment that personal fulfillment is possible only for the comparatively rich.

    That is so COMPLETELY NOT TRUE! I can't understand your reasoning that money is the only thing of value while we are alive.

    Are you actually saying that personal fulfillment is NOT possible unless a person is *comparatively rich*? Wow, talk about looking down your snooty nose on the *comparatively poor* people of the world.

    In your world, maybe, money is all that matters. But in other worlds, personal fulfillment is measured by other things like time spent with children, being there to comfort your child yourself, giving of yourself with love to make someone else happy or comfortable.

    Thru all generations there have been women who worked and women who didn't. I'm not getting your point about choices being a relatively new development.


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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    Paulaedwina, I think the housing market FOLLOWED the dual incomes. I see it as a domino effect: women go to college and run up student loans. Then they have to get a job to pay back the loans, if nothing else. Then they get married and can afford a more expensive house.

    If people stayed in single-income housing and did buy the higher priced houses, builder would build smaller, more affordable homes.

    It's all in what a woman wants to work toward: a big home with a mortgage to match; or, a relaxed, slower way of life staying home with her children.
    Yes, the first wave of feminism in the early 1970s helped women work outside the home and that contributed to the ability to buy more house. At the same time, women also gained admission to colleges that had previously been closed to them.

    But I don't think borrowing heavily for college was common in that generation-- for men or women. Therefore, I don't think you can lay blame for the invention of the McMansion at the feet of women who somehow illegitimately wanted to go to college.

    One thing that equality in education and the work force did do for women was allow them a way to leave an abusive marriage. Cultural bias against the battered wife aside, it really was hard to leave if you couldn't pay the bills for you (and often the children you took with you). And *that* didn't mean that a landlord would rent to you as a single woman or divorcee.

    In the present-- the era of borrowing beyond reason for higher education--- I see men and women doing that equally.
    The armchair saddler
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  8. #48
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    Rustbreeches...love your comment.

    I remember one year, it was a 30-something anniversary, we decided to get shutters for our house. We'd been putting it off because of the expense. That was our splurge.

    Another anniversary it was the gas logs for the fireplace.

    After that it became a fun thing to get something for us together, something lasting...not like a dinner or vacation...something we would look at every day and remember.


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  9. #49
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    As far as day care, I also didn't think I'd make a great parent and put my daughter in day care. I also thought it would be good for her to be around other kids. Big mistake. Day care workers get paid by the hour and have who knows how many kids to watch. Looking back now, I wish I had just kept her at home. Nannies may be different, but then why have a kid if it's going to be with a nanny all day long.


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  10. #50
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    mvp, I didn't mean women were not legitimate in going to college. For those who have their heart set on a particular career, of course it goes without saying.

    I feel now, tho, that a lot of people...men and women...are going to college without any real hope of getting a job that requires a degree. I cringe everytime I hear that "every one is entitled to a college degree". No, not everyone should go to college.


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  11. #51
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    I'm curious as to why so many women think they won't be *good* mothers before they've had children. And, if you don't think being a mother is something you're going to like, why have children?

    It's sort of like boarding out a horse when you have perfectly good farm at home.


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  12. #52
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    Almost all children in the past and many now are not planned. Sex has traditionally equalled children even when they were unwanted.

    When much of the world survives on $3 a day or less, all of the people posting here are affluent.

    Since we've turned job training over to the educational establishment, everyone needs to go to some level of college. Well, maybe retail clerks don't need training to work, but skill training is barely available these days outside of school. The majority of 4 year college/university students today are in nothing more than glorified vocational training. That training used to be provided through apprenticeships and still is in much of the world.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    mvp, I didn't mean women were not legitimate in going to college. For those who have their heart set on a particular career, of course it goes without saying.

    I feel now, tho, that a lot of people...men and women...are going to college without any real hope of getting a job that requires a degree. I cringe everytime I hear that "every one is entitled to a college degree". No, not everyone should go to college.
    So why does this complaint about the borrowing whippersnappers of today matter in a thread about a retro-brand of feminism? I may be wrong, but the pieces in your earlier post implied that uppity women without the means to buy a college degree outright drove up the cost of houses.
    The armchair saddler
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    I'm curious as to why so many women think they won't be *good* mothers before they've had children. And, if you don't think being a mother is something you're going to like, why have children?

    It's sort of like boarding out a horse when you have perfectly good farm at home.
    I don't know, either. My mom-- who has two degrees and a career and raised her kids-- is of the "you'll figure it out" persuasion.

    I thank her for that. It would suck to have children (or take up any career) and think, "Oh man, I'll fail at this." The "competitive parenting" thing is so damaging to everyone!

    Between my momma's idea and the trash you can see on Jerry Springer, know that you will do just fine at raising your kid.
    The armchair saddler
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    When much of the world survives on $3 a day or less, all of the people posting here are affluent.
    Hold up! I don't have kids and a huge, huge part of that is because I know I can't afford them. I make more than $3 a day, but I don't make enough to have children in the sense that I can fund them all the way into a pretty good launch into adulthood. To me, that's the definition of raising kids so if you don't have the dough, you shouldn't have the kinda-kids.
    The armchair saddler
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  16. #56
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    I'm not communicating clearly on my point about how borrowing forces one into having to be employed.

    I was blessed to be in a generation that got married and had kids. We didn't over-analyze it...it's just what we did. I didn't think about what it took to be a good mother. It was just one day at a time, lots of love and common sense. I think my generation, the last of the 1950s generation, had it pretty easy. We sure didn't have to deal with all the angst I see these days. Nothing was laid out in front of us...it was just day to day with the man we loved and our families.


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  17. #57
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    I was just responding to the "plumbers and policemen" who are able to afford housewives.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  18. #58
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    Are you intentionally demeaning to wives of first responders? I find the phrase "afford housewives" really feeds into your housewives are slaves mentality. Have you forgotten that people get married because they love each other? That they decide how their family will operate based on mutual love and respect? You obviously see wives as things that are bought by the men who can afford it. A very dark ages vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I was just responding to the "plumbers and policemen" who are able to afford housewives.


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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    I'm not communicating clearly on my point about how borrowing forces one into having to be employed.
    I get it, but it has no bearing on women's contribution to the problem or whatever brand of feminism we'd like now. Again, that's for the simple reason that both genders borrow for higher education equally... as far as I know.

    With respect to the end of the 1950s "we'll figure it out one day at a time," and modern angst, I think the huge problem is that we in the Western World got really rich after WWII, raised out expectations for "what counts" as creating a good family life, then ran out of money... then credit. Now, perhaps two generations removed from the last time anyone "knew how to be poor," adults are wigged out about how to match their well-funded childhoods with their kids.

    It's going to be a bumpy ride.
    The armchair saddler
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  20. #60
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    That's just it. The credit, the borrowing, the need for revenue, working moms. It's all so over the top. Ordinary people are spending tens of thousands on weddings, vacations, designer clothes, jewelry. Of course it take 2 incomes...especially when added on top of student loans. I see disaster ahead for a generation that won't be able to save for retirement because they are paying of debt, a generation that will be saddled with higher and higher taxes because of the U.S. debt. And that scares me. Not for me...I'll be dead. But for adults everywhere. How on earth can anyone get back to being content to be "poor".

    My dad was a mechanic at a dealership...blue collar, 8th grade education. I guess we were poor despite having a home, enough food and clothing and bills paid. No frills, tho. I don't think anyone of today's young adults would consider that to be a good thing.

    Yes it will be a bumpy ride. I don't wish for my kids to have it *better* than I did. I hope they have the skills to cope with where ever life leads them. If they have that, they will always be prepared.

    A little off topic, I guess.


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