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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    You could be a midwife . An alewife is a fish.
    Naw, an alewife is a gal who DRINKS like a fish.


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  2. #82
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    I think there are some rampant misconceptions here about what SAHMs actually do. In real life. In the rest of the country, not some little suburban enclave back east, or a trendy neighborhood in San Francisco. As far as letting my kids play with the herd of neighborhood kids, well, they are SOL. No neighborhood, no kids. We have to import for play dates, which the suburban kids love because they get turned loose on the farm. A pile of cotton seed will keep them occupied for hours

    I think there are sucky working parents, and sucky stay at home parents and good working parents and good stay at home parents. I've seen examples of all
    From AliCat518 "Seriously, why would you NOT put fried chicken in your purse?!"


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  3. #83
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    Personal fulfillment is a luxury, pure and simple. When it's a choice between food and unfulfilling work, guess what. Rational people choose unfulfilling work. You can only seek fulfillment when basic needs are met.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    My mother graduated from college in the middle of the depression and went to work for as a bookkeeper/secretary for $2 a day. Her brother graduated during the depression and went to work as abookkeeper for $50 a week. Lets just say my mother's life choices were very limited by her wage earning capacity.

    I read the full article that JER posted and the conclusion was that alewives were wives first and foremost who brewed commercially to add to the household income. In areas where men didn't have other options, they dominated the commercial ale trade. Women's commercial activity gave them no special status, but male brewer status was enhanced.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  5. #85
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    Are you intentionally demeaning to wives of first responders?
    Take it easy! I think viney named "plumbers" as well as policemen to mean people who make middle-of-the-road salaries, not those in the financial industry who are well paid like the husband in the article.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  6. #86
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    Jun. 16, 2011
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    She lost me in the second paragraph about girls playing with dolls. So I did not play with dolls but I think I did good job raising my boys.

    Second point, if I was at home all day laundry would not be everywhere. I work about sixty hours a week and clothes may need to be put up at some point in the day but they are put up the day they are washed.


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  7. #87
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    I had a boy and a girl. There were dolls, trucks...all kinds of toys available. He played with trucks. She basically didn't play with dolls or trucks. When she got her pony she was in the barn. When he got his computer, he was in his room.

    His husbandly duties now include cooking, shopping, and hustling the kids around.

    Her duties are about the same. Each has a spouse who fills in the gaps that are left.

    I pretty much stayed out of their choices.


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  8. #88
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    Aug. 14, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    ?? Calm down-I'm saying when you have a kid you never know what you're getting. You should be ready to care for what you get in a kid. Some kids need 24/7 care. In some cases you need to be there for it.
    So I shouldn't have kids if I can't be a SAHM?

    Wow, so much for women's choices...


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  9. #89
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    Mar. 10, 2007
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    No, that's not what I said. Read again please.

    I said you might end up being a SAHM whether you think you want to be one or not. You're saying you don't want to be a SAHM and I'm pointing out having kids can bring unexpected circumstances so you should be prepared for that.



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotGait View Post
    "The world of the 1950's is long gone."

    I don't think it ever existed except in TV land. All of my grandmothers and their mothers worked AND took care of the house. My mom still works and is getting ready to retire in a few months. My baby sitter lived across the street and I was left with her at a young age. I grew up fine and my mom was a great role model on how to not put up with any shit. My dad was oddly "feminist" for someone born in the 1930's, but he grew up on a dairy farm with 9 brothers and sisters. His mother worked HARD.
    Leave it to Beaver is mostly fiction.
    I just wanted to touch on this because not too long ago my dad gave me a paper copied from a 1955 Housekeeping Monthly article titled "The Good Wife's Guide". Some of the crap written in it is INSANE! I'll highlight a few:

    "Listen to him (husband). You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first--remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours."

    "Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment; You have no right to question him."

    "Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice."

    "A good wife always knows her place."

    I feel really bad for the women of this era, the demands placed on them. I think it's great now that we do have a choice about careers and family.
    I LOVE my Chickens!


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  11. #91
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    Oct. 12, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissIntent View Post
    To me, day care or a nanny is paying someone to do what they are good at and I am not. If someone can spend 40 hours a week teaching my future kid, being creative, giving them opportunities, while I simply lack the abilities to provide that, I think I'd be a worse parent to try then to accept my own limitations. Simply being female doesn't mean I would be a good stay at home parent. I hope that when I have kids I retain the ability to let go of my ego and accept my own weaknesses instead of trying to convince myself and my family that I am the only one who can do this job properly.
    This. I think that SAHM's are great, and I did stay at home the first year with my son. But having to work, I had to come to terms with putting him in daycare. I lucked out in that we live near a major university that has a lab school. There is a normal regular staff, but then there is a fresh new gung ho college kid interning in child care every semester. When they are toddlers, each child has his own intern, now that they are in preschool, it is a 1:3 ratio. These interns think of the most utterly amazing things for the kids and they have a whole university of departments at their disposal. They get cooking demonstrations(my 4 year old loves calamari and actually can make a mean tzatziki sauce), the music department provides regular intimate concerts, they do projects with grad students from the science department, they get readings in literature, they plant a big garden in a huge grassy play yard. It's amazing and I would have to spend tons on money and time trying to expose and enrich him they way they do. It's so amazing.

    I think that there are a lot of women that are great SAHM's and I also think that if you need to/want to work, there are arrangements out there that can be found that can make it possible. I do feel guilty on days when my son really wants to sleep in and I have to get him up and go, though....

    You just decide what is right for your own unique family and your unique set of circumstances.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
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    Aug. 14, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    No, that's not what I said. Read again please.

    I said you might end up being a SAHM whether you think you want to be one or not. You're saying you don't want to be a SAHM and I'm pointing out having kids can bring unexpected circumstances so you should be prepared for that.
    My reaction is to you saying I should not have kids if I don't WANT to be a stay at home mom. I didn't say it could never happen, I said I don't want it. Fortunately, my husband is also open to the idea of being the one to say home if it were required.

    I also get the idea that you think I should not be a parent, and I think you're crazy, so perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this one.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Apr. 4, 2007
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    Vineyridge,

    LOL -Please explain how having to work for someone else in servitude, in order to give your money to someone else to spend is the superior "job". It is the working parent -who is the servant, you have it ALL back-asswards! LOL!

    As someone who has done both, I KNOW that being at home and mentoring/raising children and keeping a family/household going-is SO much more rewarding than being the one who has to have a boss and has to have the financial responsibility of a family.

    Vineyridge -I remember your extremely angry posts in another thread about how it was all those "stay at home" mom's faults that women get paid less than men in the workplace...
    It is hard to know quite how to respond to what you write -I would hope that your posts are meant as a joke but I don't think you mean them as such...
    Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
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    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Jul. 3, 2012
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    Ceilio, I fear some women have had very bad experiences or witnessed very bad situations in order to become so tilted in their thinking.

    It's a world in which they can't comprehend and loving marriage or a true commitment. When everything has to be boiled down to looking over your shoulder to make sure you're not taken advantage of, then it isn't a marriage. And if the only validation in life is earning money, then it's an empty life.

    I can understand the OP. I also think it is a sad view of the world.



  15. #95
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    May. 17, 2010
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    You know, the arguments going on are quite interesting; everyone seems quite sure that their circumstances, their geographic area, their personal circumstances are the norm, therefore their idea of what is "right" is correct, and the rest are wrong, or outliers.

    There is no "right way" or "right opinion" that fits everyone or every circumstance.
    It's interesting that a bunch of horsepeople (who, for the most part, can agree that not every horse can/should be trained and handled exactly the same way) feel strongly that parenthood/SAHM/childrearing can and should be the same for everyone and that their way (shaped by their circumstances and raising) is the only "right way".


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissIntent View Post
    So I shouldn't have kids if I can't be a SAHM?

    Wow, so much for women's choices...
    I'm not seeing why people (unless they're coming in violently defensive) can't get what she's saying--if you have a kid, you may find you do not have a choice about how much you devote to them. That kid may need at least one adult with it 24/7 because sometimes they aren't perfect healthy and adhere precisely to the child-rearing guide about physical and metal "normality" and development. Both parents need to be ready to change their lives a lot, and with some children that might mean changing completely. Heck, there are children (a small, small statistically minority) who have become so ill or who are so different developmentally that BOTH parents have to completely restructure their lives including giving up full-time work. You don't get to put in a pre-order and there's no PPE on kids, and you don't get to give them back if they don't turn out exactly like you want. People who AREN'T ready to accept that, or who cannot think of ANY reason they would EVER "stay at home" for their children because their personal wants are that important to them probably shouldn't have kids. They're an even worse "impulse buy" than live animals.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    You know, I don't remember ever blaming the disparity in earnings between men and women on Stay At Home Mothers. If you find it through search, please let me know. I do know that many women have been forced to be stay at home parents BECAUSE of the earnings disparity, since working away from the home involves significant expense if there are children and often the female earnings don't cover them with enough left over to make it financially reasonable.. I use the term "forced" advisedly.

    I also personally experienced employers who would hire a male over any female because the man needed the job for his "traditional family". Women on the other hand were thought to only work to have something to do before going into a "traditional marriage", or were likely to quit over pregnancies, and weren't a good long term investment for the employer. Women's earnings were also lower for the same work for the same reasons. The same reasoning used to apply to slots in professional schools like medicine and law. Now both are heavily female, thanks to a change in attitude.

    The history of women in the workforce has been one of boom and bust over time, just as unions have been boom and bust, usually booming during wars and busting afterwards.

    Fact is that women need to keep constantly fighting to retain what they have achieved.

    BTW, if working outside the home is such a terrible thing, why do men not stay at home more? One of the interesting points in JER's article on alewives is that men were commercial ale producers only in places where there were not other "outside the home" jobs for them. Their preference was outside work where possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cielo Azure View Post
    Vineyridge,

    LOL -Please explain how having to work for someone else in servitude, in order to give your money to someone else to spend is the superior "job". It is the working parent -who is the servant, you have it ALL back-asswards! LOL!

    As someone who has done both, I KNOW that being at home and mentoring/raising children and keeping a family/household going-is SO much more rewarding than being the one who has to have a boss and has to have the financial responsibility of a family.

    Vineyridge -I remember your extremely angry posts in another thread about how it was all those "stay at home" mom's faults that women get paid less than men in the workplace...
    It is hard to know quite how to respond to what you write -I would hope that your posts are meant as a joke but I don't think you mean them as such...
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    Fact is that women need to keep constantly fighting to retain what they have achieved.
    This is the real danger in the "Retro-Wife"'s retreat from feminism that secured something closer to wage equality.

    As I read the article and assume that the author is somewhere in her 30s, I see some naivete. She didn't grow up during the worst of the pre-feminism era. As far as bailing on her career and finding more fulfillment as a SAHM, I see that as someone just growing up and changing her mind-- bucking the system that encouraged her to develop a career. The generation before her did that in reverse.

    The problem, however, is economic. While rich white women can afford to choose, poor women cannot. And when they are paid .77 on the male dollar, they really can't if their husband isn't making a lot of money.

    As each generation gets poorer (as demographers think has happened for anyone born after 1975), what will happen to this author's children? Chances are they will not be able to repeat in their families what she did in hers. And mom didn't help because *she* didn't help the cause of producing wage-equality for women.

    It would suck if her daughters found themselves still working for .77 on the dollar.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #99
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    Aug. 15, 2009
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    I've worked full time, part time, and stayed home in my 22 years (so far, still have 7-8 to go) of parenting. It's possible to be a great (or terrible) parent in any of those situations.

    I was appalled, however, by the description of the retro mom's house. If she is home full time, why can't she keep the place neat? My husband sure managed that, when he was the stay home parent. So much for her impressive suitability.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    Ceilio, I fear some women have had very bad experiences or witnessed very bad situations in order to become so tilted in their thinking.

    It's a world in which they can't comprehend and loving marriage or a true commitment. When everything has to be boiled down to looking over your shoulder to make sure you're not taken advantage of, then it isn't a marriage. And if the only validation in life is earning money, then it's an empty life.

    I can understand the OP. I also think it is a sad view of the world.
    I think statements like this are what cause some to dislike SAHMs or at least become defensive around them.

    ezduzit, your condescension it truly grating and I'd like to suggest that you get over yourself.

    Stay at home or go to work, I don't think it really matters. But if you were truly happy with the choices you've made in life, you wouldn't feel the need to attack the choices of others.

    On an unrelated note, I think this article has turned out to be manufactured. One of the subjects of said article has come forward and said that the quotes were taken out of context and she was lied to about the subject of the article during her interview with the author. I'll see if I can track down the article I read...
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


    5 members found this post helpful.

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