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  1. #21
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    And then, once you have put in the sweat and money equity to get your horse trucking around the A-circuit, suddenly everyone wants to do you a really big favor by free leasing and keeping it in their back yard for you because their daughter "needs" a horse to move up to the 3' on and they have lots of experience in 4-h.

    I mean, it would be a tremendous sacrifice and all, but they would be willing to do this, for you.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasjordan View Post
    What I don't understand is how someone can up and lease a greenie if they plan on keeping that horse later in life. There are very few people (although I do know a few horse women I would trust implicitly) that I would want to start and ride and train my young horse. And not one of them is looking to put free training on someone's horse lol. If I planned on selling it, maybe........ I would be much more willing to lease out a been there, done that, you're gonna have a tough time ruining me, type horse.
    Good question!

    The local CL ad that made me start this thread went one further.

    Horse is a 5-year-old huge WB. Started late because of his mammoth size, but showed Training Level last summer. HO sounds like she knows what she's doing-- with the horse and with the insurance. Pictures give you that sense, too. The kicker is that she's cool with an off-farm lease (with medical and mortality insurance) AND two people splitting the lease.

    Would you do this with a horse you wanted back?
    The armchair saddler
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  3. #23
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    I "leased" a super talented but a little green mare out like this: I carry the insurance, person paid expenses. It worked well. Person got to ride a really nice horse I didn't have time for, show etc. she didn't want to commit to buying a horses, I didn't gave time, horse loved her job. I guess in the long run, it was win-win. Horse got miles, person got to show a nice horse. My horse was well broke and jumped etc. just didn't have show miles.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Good question!

    The local CL ad that made me start this thread went one further.

    Horse is a 5-year-old huge WB. Started late because of his mammoth size, but showed Training Level last summer. HO sounds like she knows what she's doing-- with the horse and with the insurance. Pictures give you that sense, too. The kicker is that she's cool with an off-farm lease (with medical and mortality insurance) AND two people splitting the lease.

    Would you do this with a horse you wanted back?
    I would. You never know what life situations come up, and if I wanted to keep my horse in work I think it would be a great opportunity for somebody who possibly can't afford the price tag on a good quality horse (or any quality horse) but wants to learn how to bring a greenie along while still keeping an ammy status (i.e. no compensation when/if the horse sells, not being paid to show, ride, etc.)

    I did it a lot through high school and college. The things that I learned were amazing and it taught me how to really ride all types of horses, without committing to one. I know that you can do that in lessons as well, but it was nice to have my 'own' horse that I didn't have to share with lots of other people. Gave me an idea of the cost involved in upkeep when I was younger, which was what my parents wanted. I got to ride a lot of nice, although green, horses without the sticker shock of the purchase price.
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  5. #25
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    I think for a low level (i.e horse is never going to be destined for big bucks/rated shows) free lease this is a fine situation. I leased an out of shape horse who was cute as a button but definitely not a beginner ride for very little (I paid $100 a month which was 1/2 board). I had no problem paying because I enjoyed the horse & the money helped out the horse's owner. However this horse was clearly not going to be sold for tons of money nor going to any A shows anytime soon/ever, so I knew I wasn't going to be "screwed over." It was a win-win because I wasn't in a situation to purchase, couldn't find anywhere I wanted to take lessons on school horses (that I could afford), but wanted to ride, and the owner needed the financial support and horse in shape.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superminion View Post
    I would. You never know what life situations come up, and if I wanted to keep my horse in work I think it would be a great opportunity for somebody who possibly can't afford the price tag on a good quality horse (or any quality horse) but wants to learn how to bring a greenie along while still keeping an ammy status (i.e. no compensation when/if the horse sells, not being paid to show, ride, etc.)
    Yabbut, the ammy who could do this well has to know something. I think the HO in my case would be happy to have someone who the horse (on the lessee's nickel, or maybe with some help), as the HO reports being too timid to show.

    I can see the value of not taking the financial risk of owning the horse. But the person who knows enough to bring one like this along also can buy a nice horse relatively cheaply.

    Sometimes I think all the "free leasing where you pay to feed it while you train it" is part of the Downfall of Civilization we worry about. It cheapens the value of the skill that good riders or trainers have.

    Why pay the pro or ammy who spent a couple of decades learning enough to improve your horse when you can get that for free?
    The armchair saddler
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Yabbut, the ammy who could do this well has to know something. I think the HO in my case would be happy to have someone who the horse (on the lessee's nickel, or maybe with some help), as the HO reports being too timid to show.

    I can see the value of not taking the financial risk of owning the horse. But the person who knows enough to bring one like this along also can buy a nice horse relatively cheaply.

    Sometimes I think all the "free leasing where you pay to feed it while you train it" is part of the Downfall of Civilization we worry about. It cheapens the value of the skill that good riders or trainers have.

    Why pay the pro or ammy who spent a couple of decades learning enough to improve your horse when you can get that for free?
    Yes, this! Would you expect a plumber to work on your pipes for free, even if he or she would gain lots of experience in the process? Training and bringing on horses is a skill, one born out of years of hard bloody work and experience, and I completely agree that it cheapens that skill when horse owners can expect to find someone who will put those training miles on their horse for free. Or my favourite, for the privilege of doing stable duties (seen a few of those ads around).

    In my case, I have my own horse and a small collection of horses that people are paying me to ride, so I'm certainly in a position where I can happily turn down the 'train my horse for free' crowd.


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  8. #28
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    I just sent my horse off today--off-farm free lease. He's been out of work for 6+ months (except for 5 rides in the last couple of weeks) so definitely needs a bit of work, but he'll jump ANYthing. From ANYwhere. So he's going to be helping a gal who's been out of jumping for 10 years (since college hunter days) relearn the jumping thing. She'll leg him up, jump the snot out of him and get brave again, and he'll come home once my arm is unbroken (not pony's fault!) and I have time to pay off medical bills instead of paying board.

    Seems like a win/win all the way around. Horse HATES time off. My bills get paid while I heal. Leasee gets a free-to-her schoolmaster over fences.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


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  9. #29
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    ^^^

    I see the benefit to the rider (and HO) in jen-s' situation.

    Lessee has to put time into the getting-back-in-shape phase of the horse's riding.

    But she is getting an educated horse and a horse that will do a particular job that she needs done.

    To me, the Training Level dressage mammoth is different-- (maybe): Anyone who knows enough to do that with a large young horse has a skill worth something. OTOH, if the HO really doesn't care if he ever improves then anyone who wants a large, pretty horse to ride is good enough.
    The armchair saddler
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    ^^^



    To me, the Training Level dressage mammoth is different-- (maybe): Anyone who knows enough to do that with a large young horse has a skill worth something. OTOH, if the HO really doesn't care if he ever improves then anyone who wants a large, pretty horse to ride is good enough.
    Well, yes and no as far as it being worth something. There are some folks out there with amazing educations and experience (who maybe even had a shingle hanging out at some point) who've taken a number of years off due to life and children etc. Maybe they've moved away from where they did their schtick and don't know anyone in their new locale.

    They're ready to get back in the game, but want to get their chops back a bit before they apply for that assistant training gig, or hang out their shingle again. Maybe they want to attend clinics or hunt a bit. Showing a nice youngster after putting some work in on it with minimal financial output can be a huge opportunity to reopen that door. While their skills are certainly worth something, people very rarely pay them for them until they have recent results and satisfied horse owner names (showing or training wise) to back it up.

    That being said, if that's what the horse owner is looking for, they need to be patient and specific in their search. But I suspect that we are more on the same page in that I see a lot of folks looking for someone "good enough" to just get a green horse rideable (for better or worse) while making money or just not paying anything. Sadly, it's a "thing". Many less than stellar riders want to ride and not have to pay to play. And many less than stellar horse owners want something for nothing. The two feed each other...and the farm and garden section of CL was born.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."



  11. #31
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    I sent my mare out for 90 days and the trainer has kept her on for the last 2 years. Actually it has been a little longer than that. She turned out to be the barn favorite. My trainer has has a dressage trainer riding and competing on her and she gives the occasional lesson to more experienced students. So, at the end of this summer, I'll get back a seasoned horse who has had plenty of varied experiences. It has certainly been a wiin-win for both of us.



  12. #32
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    The other side of the coin: everybody thinks they are a trainer!

    When I was boarding, I could not believe the amount of merely passable riders who thought they were "training" a horse if they had managed to cling to its back while it packed them around a course/test/whatever. Then they get all huffy with the horse's owner because they were getting "ripped off" having to pay lease and/or lesson fees.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    To me, the Training Level dressage mammoth is different-- (maybe): Anyone who knows enough to do that with a large young horse has a skill worth something. OTOH, if the HO really doesn't care if he ever improves then anyone who wants a large, pretty horse to ride is good enough.
    As you said, mvp, maybe. But again, looking at my situation: I have lots of experience, great education, average physical skill. I can develop a solid Training/First Level horse in my sleep, but have less experience with bigger, bigger-moving horses than with TBs, QHs, TB-crosses, etc. If the owner and I were sympatico, I could see a short term lease on the TL behemoth working well for me. Owner could have an educated rider aboard her horse and I could further refine my "sit skills" on a more challenging horse than I may have access to while I finish rehabbin my own show horse.

    Maybe. There are a lot of "it depends" lurking in any lease situation. But if the horse owner is looking for someone like me, where's the harm? She might find someone. Might not. But she'll never know if she doesn't look.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by heronponie View Post
    The other side of the coin: everybody thinks they are a trainer!
    Heronponie, I talked with a pleasant lady a while back about part-leasing my 24yo been-there-done-that Jill-of-all-trades mare for her 12yo daughter. Pleasant lady didn't want to pay, but was willing to have daughter "train" my horse for free. See, daughter had two WHOLE years of riding school lessons and had even cantered her last couple of months. And that's all there is, you know, walk, trot and canter.
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    In the depth of winter, I finally learned that there was in me invincible summer.
    -Albert Camus


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  15. #35
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    Thanks for the people pointing out riders who might get benefits from TL Behemoth that are worth paying for.

    Not knowing the TL Behemoth's owner, it would be cool if what she had in mind was someone who could develop and then show her horse. Maybe the HO would kick in for clinics or show fees while the Lessee paid the bread-n-butter bills. I could see both sides being really pleased with this kind of deal-- each getting something special they could not have bought on their own.

    Oh, and HO says Behemoth likes attention and having a job. It looks like she keeps him at home in her pasture, so I can see why she might not put him at a boarding barn with action and amenities herself. So even Behemoth would get something good from the deal.
    The armchair saddler
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  16. #36
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    I should add that knowing my horse has had time off and is unfit, not only is leasee getting a free horse, but I'm covering a few training rides (if needed), cost of first XC school (horse likely to be a bit hot), and also half of any maintenance need to get him fit again (chiro, injections if needed although he was sent off sound, sound, sound). If she gets around to competing (he does need more showing miles), I'll cover her first horse trial or two.

    I view my arrangement with her as if she's doing me the bigger favor so I wanted to make sure she felt she was getting a more than fair situation.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.



  17. #37
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    In a world where everybody hold their hand out, I can actually see it, having to pay for the privilege to train somebody's horse.

    I was brought up a bit different, many f our riders profited from a tight knit community (rather than industry): the ones with the horses often didn't ride anymore, the ones with the giggy-up didn't have the money to pay for the horse.

    So many a talented young rider earned his/her spurs as farm rider, so to speak. Putting miles on the young stock while being able to ride and show.

    and some of the breeders had some good horses!

    now, there might be a situation where you have that horse. But you don't really want to sell - or the rider does not have the funds to plop down the purchase price...but it's that horse...would you pay to ride, even though you put the miles on it?

    I certainly would expect a rider to chip in...assuming the horse is all that....

    After all, most horses don't care if they show or loaf in the pasture....
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  18. #38
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    The lease situation, for me, boils down to a question of "who needs it?"

    1. Untrained horse: pay a trainer.

    2. Horse whose owner can't ride (due to time/injury/whatever), Horse goes nuts with too much downtime, and Horse is not an easy or uncomplicated ride: free lease.

    3. Schoolmaster who stands to provide a wealth of knowledge to a rider, or BTDT horse whom anyone can hop on and ride at any time with zero skills: paid lease.

    Owner can't afford to keep the horse and wants lease $$ to offset the costs of ownership: your horse better have a lot to offer, because unless your horse is #3, it ain't happening.

    I leased a dressage horse once; he was boarded at a barn where I worked. The owner never had time to ride him, and I knew he was for sale for quite some time (but no buyers). I really wanted saddle time and had always really liked this horse, so I contacted his owner to see if she'd be interested in a half lease. She was, and a couple months later, she contacted me and offered to sell him to me for a RIDICULOUSLY low price. I ended up buying him, and he lived out his days with me, eventually retiring to my parents' cattle farm. He was definitely in the "schoolmaster" category; that horse taught me more about dressage than I had learned in 10 years of lessons on basic schoolies.

    I've free-leased horses numerous times over the years, but they've always been horses who needed work-- green, rank, no one else wants to ride, whatever. I consider that a favor to the owner, because the horse is more marketable after he's had some work.

    My current OTTB is nothing special training-wise, but he's beginner-safe, push-button W/T/C and O/F in an arena. However, he can be a handful in a show environment, and for trail riding, he needs an intermediate rider. I would feel uncomfortable trying to extort $$$ from skilled rider to lease him to serve my own financial needs, but I think he would be worth a paid lease for a beginner rider under a trainer's guidance, at least for schooling/lessons (but probably not showing).
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    And then, once you have put in the sweat and money equity to get your horse trucking around the A-circuit, suddenly everyone wants to do you a really big favor by free leasing and keeping it in their back yard for you because their daughter "needs" a horse to move up to the 3' on and they have lots of experience in 4-h.

    I mean, it would be a tremendous sacrifice and all, but they would be willing to do this, for you.
    Yeah, this is the one that drives me nuts. And when you have such a horse for sale, you get all kinds of people wanting to know if you will free lease it to them....ummm, no!



  20. #40
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    My answer: it depends.

    I "free part lease" my mare a couple days a week to a much better rider (a fellow boarder I know and trust). She covers some expenses.

    It's a win-win. There is no way this rider could afford a horse like this - she was a bit green at first, but fancy, talented, and honest. At the start, I couldn't give her a good enough ride on a regular basis and didn't want to continuously pay for 3-4 training rides a week. The lessor does get to show her.

    How many lessees get to ride a gorgeous, talented, honest WB for expenses? Don't tell me she's not getting a decent deal!
    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!



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