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  1. #21
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    I hope this is true but all those that got up and talked love to hear themselves talk and believe their speeches while they are in their soap boxes but the reality is quite different and they are afraid to go against the offenders.


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  2. #22
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    There are certain vets that are known to be the source for "meds" that don't test. I believe they should be outed and penalized as well as their clients.


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  3. #23
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    Change the culture: what is wrong with running a horse on hay and oats? It makes competition fairer, cheaper, looks after the welfare of the animal we all profess to love and admire.


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  4. #24
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    From Erin Gilmore's editorial:

    "'The New York Times article did not do anybody any favors except that it’s making this discussion happen on a national level that needed to occur for a long time,' said [USEF President, John] Long."

    The NYT certainly did do some worthwhile favors-- for honest competitors and a whole bunch of horses. After all, the USEF could have taken up this topic at any time.

    FWIW, the Dexamethasone I saw given illegally was IM. I don't think the emphasis on limiting IV drugs within 12 hours of competition will be effective. It will stop the used of Magnesium as that is currently practiced. And if that's the marquee instance of drugging that the USEF cares about, then fine. But that rules seems hard to enforce and Mg seems the tip of the iceberg. Therefore, it would be more effective-- and therefore a more honest effort on the USEF's part-- to look for a different solution to the enforcement of its D&M rules.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bayboys View Post
    Thanks for the writeup!

    Here's what I found most interesting:

    "The biggest change? No intravenous medications later than 12 hours before competition. There would be three exceptions: intravenous fluids (without extra electrolytes), intravenous antibiotics and a limited amount of dexamethasone. All of these would require a medication report form, and would need to be administered by a veterinarian."

    I absolutely approve these proposed changes, but I wonder how many trainers and competitors would find it difficult to comply, given their own current standard protocols for show preparation?
    I note it's not *injectible* medications but IV medications. Why shouldn't any injectable medication be prohibited within 12 hours before a class unless administered by a veterinarian with a med report?
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    I note it's not *injectible* medications but IV medications. Why shouldn't any injectable medication be prohibited within 12 hours before a class unless administered by a veterinarian with a med report?
    I think it is more directed towards the safety issues associated with IV vs IM injections. While IM injects are just as bad on a cheating standpoint, you're much less likely to outright kill the horse and have him drop a la humble with an IM then an IV.
    Plus many meds such as calming pastes and bute/banamine are given orally, and I'm not sure I see the problem with a little bit of bute or banamine to keep an older horse comfortable during the rigors of showing. All the walking on concrete and jumping each day can make a horse than only jumps once or twice a week sore, especially older schoolmaster campaigners.
    .אני יכול לעשות הכל על ידי אלוהים



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by justridin' View Post
    I congratulate on the coverage, but the title? Are you kidding me? Maybe it takes living west of the mississippi to understand how offensive that sounds.
    A gentle echo that the racial implications of that statement in the title were probably overlooked by the author, her editors, and anyone who may have said it at the meeting. It's really pretty icky for those of us who see the racism against native peoples on a regular basis.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


    6 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterrider23 View Post
    I think it is more directed towards the safety issues associated with IV vs IM injections. While IM injects are just as bad on a cheating standpoint, you're much less likely to outright kill the horse and have him drop a la humble with an IM then an IV.
    Plus many meds such as calming pastes and bute/banamine are given orally, and I'm not sure I see the problem with a little bit of bute or banamine to keep an older horse comfortable during the rigors of showing. All the walking on concrete and jumping each day can make a horse than only jumps once or twice a week sore, especially older schoolmaster campaigners.
    Let's walk through this.

    Dropping dead is bad whether or not it's within 12 hours of a class.

    IMHO, an injected medication - whether IV, IM, or IA - indicates an acute issue with a horse and for the sake of horse welfare - which is more extensive than merely dead/not dead - a horse that needs an injection less than 12 hours before a class IMHO should be seen and cleared by a veterinarian to compete. I welcome discussions and counterexamples, but we have to remember that the welfare of the horses is more important than our right to canter around for a ribbon.

    (I can see a veterinarian also using judgement about whether the treated horse is going in the Grand Prix or showing in hunter breeding classes.)

    Calming pastes and other concoctions are flat out illegal by USEF rules, whether or not they test. The mere intent of the administration makes them illegal. Also, they're not injected.

    Bute and Banamine are both available as oral formulations, and are most often given that way. Banamine is long acting, such that if you were using the injected form, > 12 hours would probably be desirable from the therapeutic point of view as well.

    So I'm still looking for a reason a trainer has to be able to inject a horse with anything less than 12 hours before a class without a veterinarian.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  9. #29
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    Default It is 12 hours with no injections.

    Hello,

    Thanks so much for your conversation on this topic. I've updated the article to reflect an error on my part: Dr. Schumacher did indeed say that there are to be no injections of any kind 12 hours before competition, not just intravenous injections.

    To be more specific, Dr. Schmacher said: "AAEP said 12 hours, no medication. Really what we're focused on is no injections within 12 hours. Ideally there are some medications given orally that are not of the same kind of concern. But really the issue for us is to prohibit injectable medication."

    I apologize for the error, and thank you all for raising the question which is an important one.

    Thanks,
    Mollie Bailey
    Editorial Staff


    8 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    IMHO, an injected medication - whether IV, IM, or IA - indicates an acute issue with a horse and for the sake of horse welfare - which is more extensive than merely dead/not dead - a horse that needs an injection less than 12 hours before a class IMHO should be seen and cleared by a veterinarian to compete. I welcome discussions and counterexamples, but we have to remember that the welfare of the horses is more important than our right to canter around for a ribbon.
    Here's your counter example: You want your adequan or other IV medication to be at its maximum level for the big class on Saturday. It's not Thursday and the day to give the stuff for that important class. But you also need to go in a "let him see the jumps and just get around" little class this afternoon.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mollie Bailey View Post
    Hello,

    Thanks so much for your conversation on this topic. I've updated the article to reflect an error on my part: Dr. Schumacher did indeed say that there are to be no injections of any kind 12 hours before competition, not just intravenous injections.

    To be more specific, Dr. Schmacher said: "AAEP said 12 hours, no medication. Really what we're focused on is no injections within 12 hours. Ideally there are some medications given orally that are not of the same kind of concern. But really the issue for us is to prohibit injectable medication."

    I apologize for the error, and thank you all for raising the question which is an important one.

    Thanks,
    Mollie Bailey
    Editorial Staff
    Wow Mollie, that was a pretty big goof! Thanks for correcting.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mollie Bailey View Post
    Hello,

    Thanks so much for your conversation on this topic. I've updated the article to reflect an error on my part: Dr. Schumacher did indeed say that there are to be no injections of any kind 12 hours before competition, not just intravenous injections.

    To be more specific, Dr. Schmacher said: "AAEP said 12 hours, no medication. Really what we're focused on is no injections within 12 hours. Ideally there are some medications given orally that are not of the same kind of concern. But really the issue for us is to prohibit injectable medication."

    I apologize for the error, and thank you all for raising the question which is an important one.

    Thanks,
    Mollie Bailey
    Editorial Staff
    Thanks for the clarification, Mollie!

    I think the confusion came from Dr. Schumacher saying that there should be no injections within 12 hours of competing - the exceptions being IV fluids (sans extra electrolytes like Magnesium), IV Antibiotics, and a "responsible amount" of IV Dex (for the treatment of hives, etc). The biggest thing to take away from that, however, was his next statement that a Medication Report MUST be filed in any of those three cases, and that those injections may ONLY be done by a veterinarian.
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by neigh View Post
    There are certain vets that are known to be the source for "meds" that don't test. I believe they should be outed and penalized as well as their clients.
    This. And they most certainly should NOT be allowed to be USEF show vets!

    Hasty ETA (sorry, I was focused on replying to that one point) to say a huge thanks to COTH for the gr8 coverage and WOW to USEF, I must say I am pleasantly surprised. Might even rejoin.

    Now: on to across-the-board enforceability...
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  14. #34
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    WA - I went in with moderate to low expectations, and was really impressed with them last night.

    I really thought Chris Kappler brought up a good point - if the FEI is the International standard, why don't we just follow FEI guidelines and zero tolerance policies across the board?

    According to Mr. Long, the USEF is coordinating and consulting with the FEI at present - both in response to the NYT article and the bad PR that they've received because of "the noisy incident from last year," as well as their ongoing efforts to make fundamental changes in the Federation in regards to drugging.

    Really, it was so interesting to be a part of last night's meeting. I really recommend if you have one nearby that you can get to - GO! Very informative.
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


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  15. #35
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    It is fine to punish the use of medications that allow the horse to have a relaxed attitude while showing. Please remember that these drugs aren't just to make sure the rider doesn't get bucked off, they reduce the time on the lunge line. They are flight animals and for the most part very fit. In comes the lunge line to take the edge off and you break your horse in no time flat. Who is punished now?



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    I really thought Chris Kappler brought up a good point - if the FEI is the International standard, why don't we just follow FEI guidelines and zero tolerance policies across the board?
    Well, I totally agree w/ him as it happens, but apparently some Intl High Performance peeps *somewhere* in the NARG mix must disagree with Mr. Kappler somewhat vehemently, since it was, cringemakingly, the USA (among others) that tried to rush a pro-bute rule through after everybody had left an FEI meeting a couple years back...

    ETA again (seems I can only keep one thought in my head at a time today - the perils of aging...) - Thank you so much for the update, ybiaw! The closest to me is in KY (there really should be one in Atlanta, I think in terms of H/J our numbers are far higher than KY's) so it depends.... but I might.

    I will certainly take the opportunity to send an e-mail when I get home from work, however.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Well, I totally agree w/ him as it happens, but apparently some Intl High Performance peeps *somewhere* in the NARG mix must disagree with Mr. Kappler somewhat vehemently, since it was, cringemakingly, the USA (among others) that tried to rush a pro-bute rule through after everybody had left an FEI meeting a couple years back...

    ETA again (seems I can only keep one thought in my head at a time today - the perils of aging...) - Thank you so much for the update, ybiaw! The closest to me is in KY (there really should be one in Atlanta, I think in terms of H/J our numbers are far higher than KY's) so it depends.... but I might.

    I will certainly take the opportunity to send an e-mail when I get home from work, however.
    Multi-thinking is not your strong suit today!

    I have 3 pages of notes from the meeting, and I'm hoping to put them into readable, non-chicken scratch format this weekend.

    As I was walking out, I heard someone (who I didn't recognize in plain clothes, but probably would have recognized in riding clothes) say to someone he was with, "I just want to know where these people are seeing all these horses that are supposedly so doped up they're crashing through fences!"

    It reminded me of the saying "There's a crazy person in every group. If you can't figure out who it is, it's probably you." or some such phrase...

    They said they're going to edit the film and put the video up on USEF network. I'd guess it'll be up in the next few days. You can find me sitting 10' to the right of His Georgeness, having a proximity-induced stroke. LOL.
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshAir View Post
    It is fine to punish the use of medications that allow the horse to have a relaxed attitude while showing. Please remember that these drugs aren't just to make sure the rider doesn't get bucked off, they reduce the time on the lunge line. They are flight animals and for the most part very fit. In comes the lunge line to take the edge off and you break your horse in no time flat. Who is punished now?
    Well... Among the many (ahem!) lifestyle changes that trainers, owners and exhibitors might be undergoing in the near future, I would submit y'all are going to have to spend a LOT more time handwalking.

    If you think back to the thread that was along the lines of "If you don't drug what do you do? [in terms of prep] - the preponderance of the answers were "I hand walk." That's a very physically low-impact way to get the stupids out of a horse. It even works on greenies. Thing is, 15-20 mins twice a day isn't going to do it. Your clients (and DO make your clients do it, or charge them treble for every groom that has to do it for them) are going to have to be out there w/ their horses for 4-5 *HOURS* strolling around, in order for it to be effective.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Here's your counter example: You want your adequan or other IV medication to be at its maximum level for the big class on Saturday. It's not Thursday and the day to give the stuff for that important class. But you also need to go in a "let him see the jumps and just get around" little class this afternoon.
    That is not the intended administration strategy for Adequan.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    I really thought Chris Kappler brought up a good point - if the FEI is the International standard, why don't we just follow FEI guidelines and zero tolerance policies across the board?
    Because the FEI deals with the governance of horse sports at the highest levels. It is not set up to worry about what's best for a 20+ year old pony doing the short stirrup classes, or the older schoolmaster teaching the ropes to the umpteenth person starting out in the 2'6" hunter division.

    Those animals can benefit from the responsible use of a little Bute or the like, just as I can benefit from the occasional Advil. Could I get through the day without it? Yes, but I will be more comfortable with it. Ditto for those horses.


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