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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    Is that specified in the rulebook? MHM, I believe, is well versed in USEF rules.

    I think it would behoove USEF to have more clear cut procedures and penalties, a la FEI.

    Anyhoo...the subject is finally being addressed in the public forum by USEF and that's a good step forward!
    Some of the punishment issues are specifically addressed and some of my statements are based on my experience with the USEF hearing process. Not as a charged member I might add



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolor View Post
    Some of the punishment issues are specifically addressed and some of my statements are based on my experience with the USEF hearing process. Not as a charged member I might add
    So, we see that USEF doesn't have an open, specific, system in place for dealing with these matters. That, in itself, is an open door for politics and favoritism to run rampant. Time for a change.

    The hearings re Mandarino have not been published by USEF nor has the reversal of Bruce Burr's 2 year suspension and the reasoning behind it.
    The FEI publishes their hearings in print, and their reasoning behind the penalties incurred whether large or small, in excruciating detail, on their website.

    The FEI policy does give people a much better understanding of the process. USEF leaves most of us in the dark as to their reasoning , they lack transparency and accountability.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolor View Post
    No, that was not the original protocol for Adequan. It has always, per the manufacturer and any knowledgeable vet who prescribes it, been a 28 day protocol of seven injections given every four days. And someone earlier included it in IV injections. It is IM and the reaction when someone accidentally hits a vein with it is not good.
    You'd be wrong. Very wrong.
    I have the original packaging material from 11 years ago.
    One a month IM after loading dose.
    Could care less what your so called knowledgeable yet says. LMAO

    However, I think we do agree that it's an IM shot not IV.
    And the protocol does not call for admin a few hours before showing,



  4. #64
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    I am happy that the USEF is addressing the problem. My mind boggles at how they intend to enforce the no injections within 12 hours of competing rule. Security cameras in the stabling area? Folks strolling the aisles looking for a person with a needle and syringe in his/her hand? An underground network of braiders who are compensated handsomely for reporting a violation?

    Then again, it will eliminate the rather unattractive process of horses being injected with Carolina Gold on their way to the ring.

    And it would be difficult to explain why a horse dropped dead in the crossties especially if there was a bloody syringe in the vicinity.

    As far as penalties? Impose the three strikes, you're out rule for banned substances and for breaking the no injection rule. If it is good enough for major league baseball it should be good enough for the horse show world.


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  5. #65
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    There are a lot of laws on the books that are hard to enforce until you get caught, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

    When you do get caught - and drop the horse on the cross ties - at least the rule would be in place to enact a sanction.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    Rainy
    Stash


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bayboys View Post
    There are a lot of laws on the books that are hard to enforce until you get caught, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

    When you do get caught - and drop the horse on the cross ties - at least the rule would be in place to enact a sanction.
    And at least this is black and white. Either you are injecting with a syringe or you're not. Either the horse is showing within 12 hours or it's not. The gray area comes with someone who is injecting a horse >12 hours out. Which is why an even better rule would be no injections period for any horse on the grounds unless administered by a vet. I believe that is the FEI protocol and, while I'm not in favor of an FEI-like zero tolerance rule, IMHO the no injections one would be good.
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    You'd be wrong. Very wrong.
    I have the original packaging material from 11 years ago.
    One a month IM after loading dose.
    Could care less what your so called knowledgeable yet says. LMAO

    However, I think we do agree that it's an IM shot not IV.
    And the protocol does not call for admin a few hours before showing,
    You originally said the original protocol was once a month. That is very different than once a month after the loading dose, which is what you now are saying. The dose is 28 days, every four days.

    http://www.adequan.com/administering.aspx

    Also, Adequan was first approved for use in equines in 1984 so I don't think you have the "original packaging" from 11 years ago.

    http://www.luitpold.com/History.aspx


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  8. #68
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    Need to close the loophole for people that inject, get caught, and say they were just about to scratch because Dobbin was starting to look colicky, and had no intention of showing in that class coming up.


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  9. #69
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    I guess I should have inserted a sarcasm on, sarcasm off around my comment. I think that the rule is a good rule, albeit hard to enforce. Although, I do rather like the idea of security cameras in the barn . Unfortunately, I am not sure how much a deterrent it will be - my experience is that the cheaters will always find a way to cheat.


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  10. #70
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    One way to edit hunter courses for the benefit of the "fresh" horse would include fewer related distances thus allowing riders to add without penalty and judges to focus primarily on the jump.
    I am curious as to how USEF plans to police a " no injections policy" without deferring further cost to exhibitors.
    Last edited by Ruby G. Weber; Mar. 28, 2013 at 10:18 PM.


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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post

    The FEI policy does give people a much better understanding of the process. USEF leaves most of us in the dark as to their reasoning , they lack transparency and accountability.
    That-- the last bit is a damned fine point that I haven't heard anyone typing about yet. I hope it comes up at one of the Town Meetings. If y'all can wait until July and help me think more about this idea, I'll make the point in Bend, OR.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  12. #72
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    So is this a USEF proposal, or USHJA? Because any USEF D&M changes would effect all disciplines, across the board. I'll admit I'm not as well versed in all the disciplines, but I rarely ever hear about drugging issues in, say, dressage horses, so I'd really be curious what the other disciplines think about these proposed measures, versus an FEI approach. They get a vote, too, after all.

    Frankly, much as I don't have a personal problem with a little bute or banamine, if the choice has to be between the free for all we have going on now, versus strict FEI policies (whichpeople will still try to circumvent, because killing a few horses is still easier than learning to ride a fresh one), I'd take FEI rules.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post
    One way to edit hunter courses for the benefit of the "fresh" horse would include fewer related distances thus allowing riders to add without penalty and judges to focus primarily on the jump.
    I am curious as to how USEF plans to police a " no injections policy" without deferring further cost to exhibitors.
    Exactly - the best way to institute real change is to take away incentives that create problem in first place. Courses are the simplest most practical way to do so- less related distances, more challenging jumps that call for brilliance (ie- less groundlines / wider oxers). Promote a change in judging by changing what they are judging. Often a different type or "look" wins the handy classes, which tells me that moving the hunters more toward handy courses which reward more forward riding is practical solution.



  14. #74
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    I think you have to keep in mind that the problems don't lie with the older horses that teach the new rider. It's the BNT, BNR and BNH that are in focus. They promote the sport outside of our own little world. And if there are horses that can't handle their job then the people responsible have to decied if the have to change the training or the number of competiton or maybe if it's a great horse but it just can't handle the job.
    We are responsible that our horses can preform on the level we want. And if the BNT/R/H can not do that without medication or lunging to death or as i just read in a greman magazine jumping 100 fences during the night before a class then these people have to bleed. Keeping them fit and healthy, no problem. But durging a horse death or working it in to exhaustion thats really bad. Nobody would allow that to do with humans!



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTwistedWire View Post
    So is this a USEF proposal, or USHJA? Because any USEF D&M changes would effect all disciplines, across the board. I'll admit I'm not as well versed in all the disciplines, but I rarely ever hear about drugging issues in, say, dressage horses, so I'd really be curious what the other disciplines think about these proposed measures, versus an FEI approach. They get a vote, too, after all.
    Good point.



  16. #76
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    How are they going to enforce the no injections 12 hours out when some stable off grounds during WEF?



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothy Gale View Post
    How are they going to enforce the no injections 12 hours out when some stable off grounds during WEF?
    I have not shown in a few years, so perhaps this has changed, but when I was showing hunters and jumpers, the D&M rules did specify how many hours out for many substances. It was not as if USEF officials patrolled the barn enforcing the time limits, but that you knew if you were tested and had given the substance closer than the specified time, the concentration of the medication would likely test over, and you would have a D&M infraction. I would guess the same would apply here. USEF would need to test more and hand out harsher penalties to incentivize playing by the rules.



  18. #78
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    Slightly off topic.....Part of the problem is trainers who purchase a 'brilliant' horse for a child or adult that they're not yet ready to ride. A big circuit pre-green champion or a 1st or 2nd year might need another year or two of professional handling before they're ready. The prices are huge, the commissions could probably support my herd for a year, but without some type of intervention, chemical or otherwise, said child/ adult will find they can't ride their horse. I know it's a business and showing is expensive no matter how you cut it. Guys, instead of finding your client a 6 figure 'star', find them the right horse or pony, up your commission a bit, and you or your assistants teach more lessons. That way, when you finally do buy your customer that big ticket horse, they might be able to ride it.


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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    Need to close the loophole for people that inject, get caught, and say they were just about to scratch because Dobbin was starting to look colicky, and had no intention of showing in that class coming up.
    And lets not forget those stable horses off site while showing like many do in Ocala or Wellington or trailer in.

    I have been following this topic since well before the "big noisy incident" and I agree, simply establishing a 12 hr rule is really not any more enforceable than what we have now.

    What ever changes are made, I think they need to include the following;

    1. Increased testing along with harsher penalties for drug/medications infractions. Craft it so that first offense in more than a slap on the wrist and then escalate penalties up to banning from association for third offense within a ten year period.

    2. Establish extreme limitations (zero tolerance on most substances and IV) on what can be administered to a registered to compete horse/pony while on show grounds.

    3. Partner with AAVSB (American Assoc. of Veterinary State Boards) so that when offending Vets are discovered, charges are brought up so that vet (if found guilty) is fined. I would escalate this so that third offense they lose their license. Maybe something like this would help stop certain vets from developing "cocktail mixes" and the handing out of controlled substances to trainers like candy.

    4. Give Vets an incentive to input medical data into a searchable database so that potential buyers of a horse can see what meds. have been being administered. Kinda like what Car Fax does on cars.

    5. Change the course design and judging criteria as someone stated earlier in this thread.
    Last edited by pds; Mar. 29, 2013 at 10:51 AM.


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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purepony View Post
    Slightly off topic.....Part of the problem is trainers who purchase a 'brilliant' horse for a child or adult that they're not yet ready to ride. A big circuit pre-green champion or a 1st or 2nd year might need another year or two of professional handling before they're ready. The prices are huge, the commissions could probably support my herd for a year, but without some type of intervention, chemical or otherwise, said child/ adult will find they can't ride their horse. I know it's a business and showing is expensive no matter how you cut it. Guys, instead of finding your client a 6 figure 'star', find them the right horse or pony, up your commission a bit, and you or your assistants teach more lessons. That way, when you finally do buy your customer that big ticket horse, they might be able to ride it.
    I agree. How do we counter this, though? The best horses will always cost more, as they should. Is there a way we can rearrange the sport to discourage the kiddos and ammies from biting off more than they can chew?

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester



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