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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    I really thought Chris Kappler brought up a good point - if the FEI is the International standard, why don't we just follow FEI guidelines and zero tolerance policies across the board?
    Because our shows aren't run under FEI rules. Our shows are run under USEF rules as they are our governing body. An international standard and a national standard are two very different things.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Well... Among the many (ahem!) lifestyle changes that trainers, owners and exhibitors might be undergoing in the near future, I would submit y'all are going to have to spend a LOT more time handwalking.

    If you think back to the thread that was along the lines of "If you don't drug what do you do? [in terms of prep] - the preponderance of the answers were "I hand walk." That's a very physically low-impact way to get the stupids out of a horse. It even works on greenies. Thing is, 15-20 mins twice a day isn't going to do it. Your clients (and DO make your clients do it, or charge them treble for every groom that has to do it for them) are going to have to be out there w/ their horses for 4-5 *HOURS* strolling around, in order for it to be effective.
    Why?
    Change the rules so excessive time on the line is not needed.

    If the current judging standard contributes to the problem then change the standards.
    And by all means go after people like Scott Stewart who got picked up 3 times in a year for med violations. And after that he was the 'cover boy' on the USHJA magazine. LMAO.
    Nothing will happen because it's the BNT trainers and owners who are involved.

    And the original protocol for Adequan was a once a month IM shot.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    Multi-thinking is not your strong suit today!
    No kidding! *lesigh* (In case you're wondering, no, I'm not getting much work done, either....)

    I have 3 pages of notes from the meeting, and I'm hoping to put them into readable, non-chicken scratch format this weekend.
    I would absolutely LOFF to read these and I'm sure lots of others would as well. Again many thanks for your efforts! I think you may rest assured I'll be riveted by what turns up on the USEF Network, as well.

    I can relate to the proximity-induced stroke, despite the fact that way back decades ago as a junior I was sort of on nodding/speaking terms with him at the shows. I saw him at this past year's NHS and was WAY too shy to ask him to autograph my program, despite having no such fears whatsoever concerning anyone else I met, LOL!
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    I really thought Chris Kappler brought up a good point - if the FEI is the International standard, why don't we just follow FEI guidelines and zero tolerance policies across the board?
    If zero tolerance is the only way we can deal with some of these issues, then I would accept that. However, I don't think it's actually in the best interests of the horses or the sport. There are older horses who can go around happily and comfortably with an NSAID, and who get beneficial exercise and attention out of the deal while taking good care of beginner riders.

    FEI is high performance. High performance horses for high stakes with high wear and tear need to be 100% sound. USEF is overseeing walk-trot classes. Horses with physical limitations can do those classes without creating harm on their bodies.

    FEI *riders* are also not permitted medications. I'm not feeling the need to implement that for USEF.

    But, the medications administered need to be in and for the horse's best interest, and a horse who is sick or hurt does need to be withdrawn from competition.

    Zero tolerance can work against the horse's interests as well if the horse is denied needed or helpful medications solely to allow it to compete. I think Long's point that our horses are having long, safe careers compared to other nations is not one to dismiss lightly.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    If zero tolerance is the only way we can deal with some of these issues, then I would accept that. However, I don't think it's actually in the best interests of the horses or the sport. There are older horses who can go around happily and comfortably with an NSAID, and who get beneficial exercise and attention out of the deal while taking good care of beginner riders.

    FEI is high performance. High performance horses for high stakes with high wear and tear need to be 100% sound. USEF is overseeing walk-trot classes. Horses with physical limitations can do those classes without creating harm on their bodies.

    FEI *riders* are also not permitted medications. I'm not feeling the need to implement that for USEF.

    But, the medications administered need to be in and for the horse's best interest, and a horse who is sick or hurt does need to be withdrawn from competition.

    Zero tolerance can work against the horse's interests as well if the horse is denied needed or helpful medications solely to allow it to compete. I think Long's point that our horses are having long, safe careers compared to other nations is not one to dismiss lightly.
    I agree that there can be instances in which a gram of bute at 12 hour intervals can be beneficial for the older campaigner to keep them comfortable.

    Keep in mind, please, that these were not MY thoughts, but those of CK. I was merely stating that I thought they were good, interesting points.
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    Let's walk through this.

    Dropping dead is bad whether or not it's within 12 hours of a class.

    IMHO, an injected medication - whether IV, IM, or IA - indicates an acute issue with a horse and for the sake of horse welfare - which is more extensive than merely dead/not dead - a horse that needs an injection less than 12 hours before a class IMHO should be seen and cleared by a veterinarian to compete. I welcome discussions and counterexamples, but we have to remember that the welfare of the horses is more important than our right to canter around for a ribbon.

    (I can see a veterinarian also using judgement about whether the treated horse is going in the Grand Prix or showing in hunter breeding classes.)

    Calming pastes and other concoctions are flat out illegal by USEF rules, whether or not they test. The mere intent of the administration makes them illegal. Also, they're not injected.

    Bute and Banamine are both available as oral formulations, and are most often given that way. Banamine is long acting, such that if you were using the injected form, > 12 hours would probably be desirable from the therapeutic point of view as well.

    So I'm still looking for a reason a trainer has to be able to inject a horse with anything less than 12 hours before a class without a veterinarian.
    A huge number of people routinely using calming pastes. One catalog company clearly states that their product doesn't test. At WEF, there is a banner hangimg ringside that advertises
    Perfect Prep.



  7. #47
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    yes, isn't it ironic that Perfect Prep is an A list sponsor now???
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm


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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    Why?
    Change the rules so excessive time on the line is not needed.

    If the current judging standard contributes to the problem then change the standards.
    And by all means go after people like Scott Stewart who got picked up 3 times in a year for med violations. And after that he was the 'cover boy' on the USHJA magazine. LMAO.
    Nothing will happen because it's the BNT trainers and owners who are involved.

    And the original protocol for Adequan was a once a month IM shot.
    No, that was not the original protocol for Adequan. It has always, per the manufacturer and any knowledgeable vet who prescribes it, been a 28 day protocol of seven injections given every four days. And someone earlier included it in IV injections. It is IM and the reaction when someone accidentally hits a vein with it is not good.


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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    Zero tolerance can work against the horse's interests as well if the horse is denied needed or helpful medications solely to allow it to compete. I think Long's point that our horses are having long, safe careers compared to other nations is not one to dismiss lightly.
    But do we know if that is true (that US show horses have longer, safer, careers compared to other nations)?
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    Why?
    Change the rules so excessive time on the line is not needed.

    If the current judging standard contributes to the problem then change the standards.
    And by all means go after people like Scott Stewart who got picked up 3 times in a year for med violations. And after that he was the 'cover boy' on the USHJA magazine. LMAO.
    Nothing will happen because it's the BNT trainers and owners who are involved.

    And the original protocol for Adequan was a once a month IM shot.
    And those that got up and spoke are always showering SS with compliments so who will they go after? some small trainer who gives a dose to keep up with the big guys? And the same characters gave tons of compliments to the robot like horses that were winning in the Hunter Derby. they should have tested those.


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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    If zero tolerance is the only way we can deal with some of these issues, then I would accept that. However, I don't think it's actually in the best interests of the horses or the sport. There are older horses who can go around happily and comfortably with an NSAID, and who get beneficial exercise and attention out of the deal while taking good care of beginner riders.

    FEI is high performance. High performance horses for high stakes with high wear and tear need to be 100% sound. USEF is overseeing walk-trot classes. Horses with physical limitations can do those classes without creating harm on their bodies.

    FEI *riders* are also not permitted medications. I'm not feeling the need to implement that for USEF.

    But, the medications administered need to be in and for the horse's best interest, and a horse who is sick or hurt does need to be withdrawn from competition.

    Zero tolerance can work against the horse's interests as well if the horse is denied needed or helpful medications solely to allow it to compete. I think Long's point that our horses are having long, safe careers compared to other nations is not one to dismiss lightly.
    FEI riders are not permitted to use certain specified medications, and those that mask them, lasix etc.. They certainly CAN use Ibuprophen, Tylenol, even Hydrocodone (though not Oxycodone). Technically you could have a stiff gin and tonic and Vicodin before your Olympic ride (not that many would choose to) and be within the rules.

    I think the important point is ,that even if the medications allowed for horses are different between the FEI and USEF, the penalty for breaking the rules should be the same.

    If USEF adopted the penalty structure that the FEI has in place, there would be fewer people willing to risk violating the USEF rules.

    It doesn't need to be an "all or nothing" solution.
    Last edited by skydy; Mar. 28, 2013 at 05:12 PM.


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Because the FEI deals with the governance of horse sports at the highest levels. It is not set up to worry about what's best for a 20+ year old pony doing the short stirrup classes, or the older schoolmaster teaching the ropes to the umpteenth person starting out in the 2'6" hunter division.

    Those animals can benefit from the responsible use of a little Bute or the like, just as I can benefit from the occasional Advil. Could I get through the day without it? Yes, but I will be more comfortable with it. Ditto for those horses.
    OK, but once the rules permit "a little bute" for the benefit of the older schoolmasters, we find that the "highest levels" of USEF competion are ALSO being given bute, and it is not so clear that THAT is in the horse's best interest.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Here's your counter example: You want your adequan or other IV medication to be at its maximum level for the big class on Saturday. It's not Thursday and the day to give the stuff for that important class. But you also need to go in a "let him see the jumps and just get around" little class this afternoon.
    Give it after the class, or 12hrs before the class.


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  14. #54
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    So nice to see this in the Chronicle.

    I'm wondering about this:

    It’s the first in a series of seven nationwide town hall meetings called in the wake of several accidents and a New York Times article that pushed the issue of drugging show horses into the sunlight.
    Can someone enlighten me on those 'several accidents'? More specifically, (1) what happened, (2) how the incident relates to drugging show horses and (3) what makes these incidents 'accidents' rather than 'consequences of drugging'?



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    OK, but once the rules permit "a little bute" for the benefit of the older schoolmasters, we find that the "highest levels" of USEF competion are ALSO being given bute, and it is not so clear that THAT is in the horse's best interest.
    Yes, and that's why the whole D&M thing is so fraught with complications. It's not easy to write and enforce rules that allow responsible horsemen to use reasonable medications to help their horses and also prevent bad horsemen from doing unreasonable things to their horses.

    I do think the penalties should distinguish between the use of allowed substances that test over the limit and banned substances. It is possible to make an honest mistake that results in a positive test for an allowed substance. The banned stuff- not so much.

    And I still think there should be an easy way to check the USEF database for someone's history of past infractions, so everyone can make informed decisions about the people they choose to patronize.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Yes, and that's why the whole D&M thing is so fraught with complications. It's not easy to write and enforce rules that allow responsible horsemen to use reasonable medications to help their horses and also prevent bad horsemen from doing unreasonable things to their horses.

    I do think the penalties should distinguish between the use of allowed substances that test over the limit and banned substances. It is possible to make an honest mistake that results in a positive test for an allowed substance. The banned stuff- not so much.

    And I still think there should be an easy way to check the USEF database for someone's history of past infractions, so everyone can make informed decisions about the people they choose to patronize.
    The FEI does distinguish between controlled medication and banned substance violations when considering sanctions.. There is no reason USEF can't do the same.

    I agree wholeheartedly that it should be as easy for people to look up those who have violated the USEF rules, it is easy find FEI rule breakers (and the list goes back for years) on the FEI website.


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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    The FEI does distinguish between controlled medication and banned substance violations when considering sanctions.
    Yes, I know. My point was that the USEF should do the same.


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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    The FEI does distinguish between controlled medication and banned substance violations when considering sanctions.. There is no reason USEF can't do the same.

    I agree wholeheartedly that it should be as easy for people to look up those who have violated the USEF rules, it is easy find FEI rule breakers (and the list goes back for years) on the FEI website.
    The USEF Hearing Committee already distinguishes between a violation involving a therapeutic substance and one involving a forbidden substance when they issue a fine or suspension. They also consider prior violations. If a plea agreement is reached rather than a charge going all the way to hearing, then the punishment may seem light but it is impossible to determine from the blurb on the website what factors led to an agreement in the first place.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolor View Post
    The USEF Hearing Committee already distinguishes between a violation involving a therapeutic substance and one involving a forbidden substance when they issue a fine or suspension. They also consider prior violations. If a plea agreement is reached rather than a charge going all the way to hearing, then the punishment may seem light but it is impossible to determine from the blurb on the website what factors led to an agreement in the first place.
    Is that specified in the rulebook? MHM, I believe, is well versed in USEF rules.

    I think it would behoove USEF to have more clear cut procedures and penalties,and documentation of disciplinary actions, a la FEI.

    Anyhoo...the subject is finally being addressed in the public forum by USEF and that's a good step forward!



  20. #60
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    I am all in favor of sanctions being much longer a la FEI. (That said, it seems that while the 2 year FEI suspensions have been imposed multiple times, my impression is that most if not all of those very long suspensions have been overturned in legal proceedings.) One month is kind of puny, short enough that people might not even notice.

    I also think that making the database of infractions searchable would go a long way. I understand that many people don't want it... but the rationale of self-protection is pretty hard to defend.

    I would also suggest that if we need changes to the Amateur Sports Act to allow USEF to appropriately protect the interests of horses, especially where the rights of a qualified international rider are not in play, that should be investigated and pursued.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



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