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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    boy, there's a lot of misinformation in the above....
    Can you specify please?



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louise View Post
    I keep thinking about raw, or at least freeze dried. The problem with raw is that I travel several times a year, and I would worry about how sanitary my cat sitter would be in handling any raw that I froze and left behind. Heck, I worry about how sanitary I would be.

    Do you use grocery store meat for your raw diet, or do you have a special supplier, Marshfield?
    I use grocery store chicken and follow the recipe at www.catinfo.org. We bought deli containers from Amazon for easy storage in the freezers.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Can you specify please?
    I'm in the midst of the fall semester pre-registration advising rush, but I'll say this--soy protein has a pretty decent amino acid profile, and proteins are not toxic to the kidneys.

    Oh, and not all Purina cat food has wheat gluten in it.

    (FWIW, I don't happen to feed Purina, nor do I get kickbacks from the company)
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  4. #24
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    Thanks Ghazzu. (I do feed Purina Cat Chow in addition to feeding wet food.)



  5. #25
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    cowboymom - I am 2 months away from a DVM. I think I have a clue beyond reading on the internet. And I met with the Purina nutritionist of my own volition because I did have some questions, not because I didn't know what to feed and was going to feed Purina if she told me about it.
    And you're right - people think that cats should eat meat and not corn. That's because meats are PROTEIN based, not CARB based foods. In fact, for some disease states (some evidence for diabetes mellitus, some evidence for obesity), the higher protein/lower carb foods do help. So yes, counting carbs.

    Agreed with Ghazzu - a lot of wendy's post isn't really true. I'm not sure the kidneys will know/care where the proteins came from considering proteins enter the bloodstream as single, bi-, or tripeptides.

    I will AGREE with wendy in that our AAFCO feeding trials are not ideal. That said, it is the best test we have right now, and certainly better than just doing calculations to see if the food might be appropriate (a la Old Roy, etc.). So in absence of any better test, why not go with the gold standard?

    ETA: OP, I'm sorry your question is turning into this.
    Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

    Former owner of the best Amish-carthorse-turned-eventer ever


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    MOST animals appear to "do well" on any or most diets- for a few years. Until the animal hits middle-age, and starts to develop chronic health conditions.
    Here we go. (Lol)

    I feed high-end foods to my working dogs, and there are foods that I won't feed. However, I have to admit that in my lifetime I've had several dogs reach mid-to-upper teens hale & hearty entirely on Ken-L Biskit (not made anymore) and Pedigree kibbles.

    I know 2 people (in different states) who run very busy boarding kennels. People can bring their own dog food for their pet's stay. Both these kennels told me separately that about the dog-food quality frenzy on the internet they have to admit that over the years they've seen great numbers of healthy, happy elderly dogs of their clients who are shiny and well and the owners are feeding Old Roy or any and all brands. And sometimes they laughingly wonder why they feed their own dogs very expensive foods when they see everyday healthy teenage dogs on every brand under the sun.


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    unless your pet has some kind of health issue and you've tried all kinds of diets and none of them "worked", this is really stupid way of approaching food selection.

    MOST animals appear to "do well" on any or most diets- for a few years. Until the animal hits middle-age, and starts to develop chronic health conditions. Poor-quality and species-inappropriate diets strongly contribute to the development of health problems of middle- and older- age. You won't know if your diet is "working for your pet" until it's too late and now your pet has X health condition.
    The first obvious clue that a change in diet is necessary is that the cat is overweight. The problems that you've cited going along with "poor" diet are HIGHLY correlated with obesity.



  8. #28
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    a lot of wendy's post isn't really true. I'm not sure the kidneys will know/care where the proteins came from considering proteins enter the bloodstream as single, bi-, or tripeptides.
    protein in general isn't toxic to the kidneys, but cats have a lot of trouble digesting plant-based proteins. There are lots of studies showing that cats don't digest or utilize plant-based proteins very well, and feeding them plant-based proteins causes strange things to happen in the cat- everything from altering urine composition (leading to stone formation) to constipation to affecting metabolism of taurine and stripping the body of minerals. Feeding low-quality plant-based protein almost certainly contributes to the development of chronic kidney failure by stressing the kidneys with the toxins produced during the attempt to digest plant-based proteins.

    Cats shouldn't be fed anything that wasn't once an animal. It does bad things to them.


    J Nutr. 2004 Aug;134(8 Suppl):2162S-2165S.

    Urinary composition of cats is affected by the source of dietary protein.

    Zentek J, Schulz A.

    -no abstract, but compares cats fed wet diets based on horsemeat, soy, or collagen (horsemeat= high quality animal based, collagen= low quality animal based, soy= low quality plant based). Source and quality of protein dramatically affected the composition of the urine (pH, struvites, oxalates, ammonia, nitrogen, urea, creatinine). Cats on the soy diets were also reported to have soft, occasional blood-streaked feces.

    J Nutr. 1992 Apr;122(4):1019-28.

    Dietary protein source (soybean vs. casein) and taurine status affect kinetics of the enterohepatic circulation of taurocholic acid in cats.

    Hickman MA, Bruss ML, Morris JG, Rogers QR.
    -no abstract, but cats fed soy-based diets lost taurine via formation of taurocholic acid which went out as bile
    Am J Vet Res. 2002 Sep;63(9):1247-51.

    Comparison of corn gluten meal and meat meal as a protein source in dry foods formulated for cats.

    Funaba M, Matsumoto C, Matsuki K, Gotoh K, Kaneko M, Iriki T, Hatano Y, Abe M.


    Abstract


    OBJECTIVE:

    To compare the nutritional value of corn gluten meal (CGM) and meat meal (MM) as a dietary source of protein in dry food formulated for adult cats.

    ANIMALS:

    8 healthy adult cats (4 males and 4 females).

    PROCEDURE:

    Diets containing CGM or MM as the main protein source were each fed for a 3-week period in a crossover study. Digestibility and nutritional balance experiments were conducted during the last 7 days of each period. Furthermore, freshly voided urine was obtained to measure urinary pH, struvite crystals, and sediment concentrations.

    RESULTS:

    Daily food intake and dry-matter digestibility were significantly higher for the MM diet. Fecal moisture content also was higher for the MM diet. Apparent nitrogen (N) absorption and N retention were higher for the MM diet, even when values were expressed as a percentage to account for differences in N intake. Urinary pH, struvite activity product, number of struvite crystals in urine, and urinary sediment concentrations were not different between diets. Retention of calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium was lower for the CGM diet, and cats lost body calcium and magnesium when fed the CGM diet.

    CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

    Meat meal was superior to CGM as a protein source in dry foods formulated for cats, because dry-matter digestibility and N utilization were higher for the MM diet. In addition, net loss of body calcium and magnesium for the CGM diet suggests that mineral requirements increase when CGM is used as a protein source.


    PMID: 12224854 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]













    J Vet Med Sci. 2001 Dec;63(12):1355-7.

    Fish meal vs. corn gluten meal as a protein source for dry cat food.

    Funaba M, Tanak T, Kaneko M, Iriki T, Hatano Y, Abe M.


    Source

    Laboratory of Nutrition, Azabu University School of Veterinary Medicine, Sagamihara-shi, Japan.


    Abstract


    To compare the effects of two dietary protein sources, fish meal (FM) and corn gluten meal (CGM), fecal moisture content, nitrogen balance and urinary excretion were examined in adult cats. The dietary protein source did not cause a significant difference in daily food intake, water intake, urine volume, dry matter digestibility or urinary nitrogen excretion, but fecal moisture content was lower (P<0.02) in the CGM group. The HCl-insoluble fraction of urinary sediment tended to be higher in the CGM group (P<0.10), although urinary pH was similar in the two groups. These results suggest that CGM is comparable with FM in respect to nutritional value and the urine acidifying effect, but FM may be preferable to CGM for the prevention of constipation and struvite urolithiasis in cats.


    PMID: 11789619 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]





    J Nutr. 1995 Nov;125(11):2831-7.

    Dietary soybean protein decreases plasma taurine in cats.

    Kim SW, Morris JG, Rogers QR.



  9. #29
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    You know wendy, you need to do a lot better than sticking up a bunch of article titles and hand-picked lines from said articles if you want to create a reasonable point of view. No, I am not pro-soy, just saying.

    Besides, how many cat diets are solely soy-based???



  10. #30
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    I feed high-end foods to my working dogs, and there are foods that I won't feed. However, I have to admit that in my lifetime I've had several dogs reach mid-to-upper teens hale & hearty entirely on Ken-L Biskit (not made anymore) and Pedigree kibbles.

    I know 2 people (in different states) who run very busy boarding kennels. People can bring their own dog food for their pet's stay. Both these kennels told me separately that about the dog-food quality frenzy on the internet they have to admit that over the years they've seen great numbers of healthy, happy elderly dogs of their clients who are shiny and well and the owners are feeding Old Roy or any and all brands. And sometimes they laughingly wonder why they feed their own dogs very expensive foods when they see everyday healthy teenage dogs on every brand under the sun.
    of course. But these are called "case-studies". They are meaningless when trying to draw scientific conclusions. Consider smoking- on the individual level, there are many people who smoke and yet seem to remain healthy and robust into old age. It's only when you conduct large population-wide studies that you see the ill effect of smoking on health- not just lung cancer, but all sorts of other cancers, and increases in rates of cardiovascular ill health, oral ill health, and so on.
    You wouldn't suggest anyone take up smoking just because you know a dozen old men who have smoked all their lives and seem just fine.
    That's what you're doing here- you know some old dogs who seem fine despite their diet. You have no idea how many have not reached old age because of their diet.
    It is true no one has done THE real, prove it all forever study, but there is a huge quantity of evidence linking poor-quality diets to poor health. And for cats and dogs, a poor-quality diet is one that is not carnivorous in nature- namely, high in protein, moderate in fat, and low in carbohydrates. Dogs seem more tolerant of dietary variations than cats do. Cats (see above) can't seem to even tolerate diets high in plant-based proteins. They need dead animals and nothing but dead animals.



  11. #31
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    Meanwhile I opened the link to the first study you posted: a grand total of 7 cats. The second, 10. The third, 8. Those are very low numbers for a good scientific study.

    You don't need population-wide studies to see the ill effects of cigarette smoke. That's absurd.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    I think my Tom came to see you this morning...
    I didn't even bother with the pate, since the bowls were half full from last night...but even the tuna was not to his liking....

    shredded, flaked or bits....NO PATE...

    sigh...
    My cats go through phases--this month, we are eating pate textures. We are okay with the shredded stuff that looks like beef chips but NOT the type that looks a bit like shredded cheese and not the slices. At some point, we will NOT be eating pate, we will ONLY want the slices. Dry food, they like 4Health and are eating it, wet food...we will see when they decide pate is yucky again.



  13. #33
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    I feel so fortunate with my cats. They all eat what I put down and are happy to also inhale real food of all sorts. Some of which should (by what others say) make them gassy and loose, but don't have that problem with my cats.
    edit to say, if I did end up with a picky cat, that cat would likely starve as I don't rotate foods because of picky eaters



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    of course. But these are called "case-studies". They are meaningless when trying to draw scientific conclusions.
    Those interested in evidence-based medicine can check out this pyramid graphic* associated with the Evidence-Based Veterinary Medicine Association. Many different kinds of studies have value, but obviously the better the study design (i.e. randomized controlled double-blinded versus case reports), the more valuable it is.
    Case reports are essentially studies with n = 1, so they're not useless...just not nearly as strong as some other studies that may exist. This is why Ol' Roy is not favored, even though some dogs do quite well.

    We also have to consider the individuals...just like some people, some dogs will thrive on any diet or one particular diet. I just like to maximize the chance of my dog's thriving no matter what.

    *ETA: I probably wouldn't have put ideas/editorials/opinions where they are on the pyramid, but that was the consensus of the EBVMA...
    Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

    Former owner of the best Amish-carthorse-turned-eventer ever



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