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  1. #301
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    Why does "grieving fruitbat" have such a familiar ring to it???

    ETA - Nope, it wasn't "grieving fruitbat"; it was a "mourning moonbat" that I was thinking of.
    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing


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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIIBarsV View Post
    Wow, I must have been doing it wrong rehabbing maneaters all these years.

    I've never had to (or accidentally) flip, hobble, unusually tie up, use sketchy equipment, spur up, jerk on, run to the point of exhaustion, starve or dehydrate a horse to get them rehabbed into happy, confident, well-behaved individuals.

    And if any one has seen Clinton's video on youtube about "problem horses" (the one with the bay horse chasing someone around a roundbale feeder, the broncs, and the black mare who flips due to reaction to pain caused by Clinton pushing back hard on a Tom Thumb bit when she got in his face, the same one who pulls back when loaded and tied into a deathtr--- excuse me, 2 horse straight load bumper pull with 7 ft wheel base)---- well, let's just say I've had horses who were absolutely more dangerous that ANY horse seen on that video, and have never felt the need to beat, pound, starve, truss up, or dehydrate a single one of them.

    And holy cow, I even fed them grain!!! From Day One!! LOL!!! Apparently Clinton needs to read some articles about starch, where it comes from, and what it does to blood glucose levels. If you feed low-starch, there's no reason at all that a "hot or nervous" horse shouldn't get a concentrated source of calories to meet their daily requirements for nutrition, especially if they are:

    1) Stressed out and pacing their run, burning calories
    2) Being worked beyond their fitness level and need the protein/calories/minerals to encourage quick muscle recovery, and prevent things like tying up, fatigue-related injuries, etc.

    My worst on the maneaters? A 1-2-3 on the rope halter, a light spank on the bum only when required to gain a response, tons of praise for doing ANYTHING other than aggression, and standing my ground in a firm, confident manner, and verbal cues like "HEY!" or "Click click."

    You can deal with 95% of behavioral issues without being outright abusive, ya know. LOL. Most training is MENTAL, not physical domination. It's being quick-thinking, responding at the right moments, observing the horse, setting boundaries and communicating effectively and clearly. Being persistent, consistent, patient, and stubborn. Mutual respect. Why should a horse respect you for roughing them up? Why should a horse respect you when you've done nothing to prove you deserve it, or that you are capable of being truly kind and pleasant?

    Just because you're pleasant doesn't mean you're going to let a horse stomp all over you. Just because you're firm and confident, doesn't mean you have to be overly aggressive, either.

    Witholding food and water... Oh people, some days you just kill me.
    THIS. Thank you.


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  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    Why does "grieving fruitbat" have such a familiar ring to it???

    ETA - Nope, it wasn't "grieving fruitbat"; it was a "mourning moonbat" that I was thinking of.
    close enough

    batty in any case!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    On a different note, whenever I see a place that is focused more on fancy than functional (I'm thinking of the entry gate at CA's place, for instance,) the first thing I would think is, 'Here is where my money goes.'
    Makes sense to me. My mule went to be started by a trainer who would put the likes of CA to shame. His place was in the high desert of Southern California and about no where close to fancy but it was safe and well put together. Needless to say, my mule got a fabulous start under saddle and is so amazing.

    I found this interesting quote by CA:

    "Frustration begins where knowledge ends" ~ Clinton Anderson

    I wonder how many times he has run out of knowledge....
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    "Frustration begins where knowledge ends" ~ Clinton Anderson

    I wonder how many times he has run out of knowledge....
    Well, you can count at least one if you snagged a screenshot of his public response to Fairy Knob.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  6. #306
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    I wonder how many horses submit to NH simply out of exhaustion. I have seen many that are dripping with sweat by the end of a session.


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  7. #307
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    Yanno, I kind of liked CA for a long while, out of the NH crowd. Then, it seems he has fallen into the marketing trap. Lots of money and adulation and travel and money and adulation. Getting farther from 'the little people'. He's getting a cult like status like a certain other NH guru whosenameshallnotbespoken. I've noticed some are starting to follow him and think he's that and a bag of chips, when it's only basic horsemanship which has been around for 2000 years. But to argue with them, well, maybe not argue, but to debate with them, it starts to sound like you-know-who followers.

    Last night, I happened on Chris Cox show and thought I'd give it a watch. He's softened a bit!! Not near as touchy and crusty as he used to be. I figured he's figured you get more with honey than vinegar. I still like him quite a bit but I'm still not understanding all this bending a horse in two! Bending and softening but in two is odd to me. Anyway, hadn't seen him for quite a while and he's quite a bit more personable.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by microbovine View Post
    I wonder how many horses submit to NH simply out of exhaustion. I have seen many that are dripping with sweat by the end of a session.
    I don't have a problem with a horse sweating a bit during the first few sessions, but not out of exhaustion. I think a horse starts to pay attention and listen when you see the first smidge of sweat in the triangle of neck, in front of the shoulder. Do what you need to do and quit. The horse should pay attention a little quicker the next day and a little quicker the day after. If a horse has to be sweated and sweated day after day to get his attention, I'd say the horse is a bit of a stonehead and maybe not smart at all!! Nothing turns a horse off quicker than day after day of drilling and sweating and being worn out. That is where reading the horse comes into play.

    Plus, I don't mind a horse sweating if we were doing something, like pasture riding or working cows and calves, but learning at the same time. It's the endless drilling which bothers me, which I what I think you mean.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!


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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Makes sense to me. My mule went to be started by a trainer who would put the likes of CA to shame. His place was in the high desert of Southern California and about no where close to fancy but it was safe and well put together. Needless to say, my mule got a fabulous start under saddle and is so amazing.

    I found this interesting quote by CA:

    "Frustration begins where knowledge ends" ~ Clinton Anderson

    I wonder how many times he has run out of knowledge....
    I believe the original quote was from Xenphon and goes:

    "Where knowledge ends, violence begins."


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #310
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    [QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;6918479]

    Whatever dark force compels grown adults who should know better to upload

    When you run it up the flagpole, honey, dirty laundry inside out, you don't get to choose who salutes or which finger they do it with.

    I am SO stealing this for my signature line! ( With your permission of course).

    When you have had a horse for more than a few months and have seen no progress, I find it's usually the owner who needs training as much as the horse.
    "I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted". - Anonymous


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  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Tamara in TN and I both witnessed that event. Clinton turned from the colt and walked way. The crowd gasped when that colt dove after him, teeth bared. That was CA's ONLY clue that colt was done with him. It was one of the worst things I've witnessed in my horse-life, and don't forget I grew up riding WP horses: I know horses and I know abuse. .
    yes. I was there. It should be said that K. and I were not acquainted even online and I had gone with a horse girl friend mostly to visit with the Purina District Guy (rusty) as we were still Gold Dealers for them back then and the dog and pony show was not of any interest to me, but the trade show and old friends were....

    it had not been since I regularly worked with actual killer pen horses, that I had seen such a sneak attack from a horse on a human....

    horses to horses ? sure....but not on a person

    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  12. #312
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    And it bears noting that he had spent a ton of time chatting up what a 'nice little horse this was going to be for a child, or a ladies horse (the colt was tiny, stout but tiny)' and yes, the horse had been extremely tolerant - for a very long time, against some tall odds (AKA you should have seen how much crap he had hung off of this colt).



  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post

    And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a 'training' regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. .
    I have seen CA several times and he does NOT use "Flooding" and I have heard him speak against it. Flooding is psychological torture similar to waterboarding.

    Approach and retreat when the horse relaxes is not flooding. In looding there is no retreat
    I wasn't always a Smurf
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    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


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  14. #314
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    You did not see him at Road to The Horse when he absolutely provoked that horse into attacking him. Does he 'retreat'? Yes. But only to go get something else to play "approach and retreat" with. And he does it hastily, on quick feet, like he's in a race. He bothers horses.


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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    I have seen CA several times and he does NOT use "Flooding" and I have heard him speak against it. Flooding is psychological torture similar to waterboarding.

    Approach and retreat when the horse relaxes is not flooding. In looding there is no retreat
    Flooding actually could be useful IF done correctly. And no, it isn't torture.
    http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/ago...esensitization

    The problem i,s for instance, tying a horse in a trailer when it is frightened in that situation; the horse fights, resulting in pain and injury (or death) and if the horse survives now has associations of pain and injury which increase the fear levels in the future, not decrease.

    For flooding to be effective there must be no negative consequence no matter how long the fear stimulus is presented. This is difficult to ensure with animals capable of flipping, self-demolishing on fencing, breaking their necks, legs, etc.

    ...and is why people recommend desensitization rather than flooding - but note that desensitization doesn't produce huge self destructive action if correctly done. And doesn't involvea provoking level of 'approach'.


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  16. #316
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    That's ok I happened along a new NH trainer last night on tv lol. Needless to say he was breaking a colt. Little qh look like. On the third day he was on the horse. IMO thats to quick. The horse was a nervous wreck about the saddle and of course he just got ran and ran around a round pen until covered in sweat. Now it being a 30 min show not sure how long he was ran but before the running he had a little sweat at his shoulder after he was covered in sweat it looked like. Then he gets on and runs him under saddle because well the horse needs to go forward so let's hit him on the rear with the reins and make him run. Not my idea of a good start on a horse. I'd like a horse to at least be comfortable with the saddle before riding lol.
    The worst part was telling people to stay at the horses shoulder right on the horse when he put the saddle on and the horse starts bucking. Good way to
    teach a beginner trying these methods to get ran over and seriously hurt. It was pull him in a tight circle and horse bucking but let's stay at his shoulder. Idk just didn't seem at all safe for him much less someone that has no clue. Of corse this guy also has a YouTube video with a 10 year old riding with him with no helmet, on a 4 yr old pony that was a good little pony it seemed but then puts the kid on the 2 yr old green mare thats been started 65 days earlier still with no helmet.
    Last edited by rabicon; Apr. 3, 2013 at 03:32 PM.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    I have seen CA several times and he does NOT use "Flooding" and I have heard him speak against it. Flooding is psychological torture similar to waterboarding.

    Approach and retreat when the horse relaxes is not flooding. In looding there is no retreat
    Wrong.

    He absolutely uses flooding! He used it with "Tricky" the OTTB in his series on HRTV. There was NO retreat at all. Just the bullwhip. Clinton barely hung on to him.

    Completely unnecessary!

    I reschool OTTBs too and don't do most of what he did in that series.

    IMHO CA is an idiot!

    And that is being nice!!


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  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    That's ok I happened along a new NH trainer last night on tv lol. Needless to say he was breaking a colt. Little qh look like. On the third day he was on the horse. IMO thats to quick. The horse was a nervous wreck about the saddle and of course he just got ran and ran around a round pen until covered in sweat. Now it being a 30 min show not sure how long he was ran but before the running he had a little sweat at his shoulder after he was covered in sweat it looked like. Then he gets on and runs him under saddle because well the horse needs to go forward so let's hit him on the rear with the reins and make him run. Not my idea of a good start on a horse. I'd like a horse to at least be comfortable with the saddle before riding lol.
    The worst part was telling people to stay at the horses shoulder right on the horse when he put the saddle on and the horse starts bucking. Good way to
    teach a beginner trying these methods to get ran over and seriously hurt. It was pull him in a tight circle and horse bucking but let's stay at his shoulder. Idk just didn't seem at all safe for him much less someone that has no clue. Of corse this guy also has a YouTube video with a 10 year old riding with him with no helmet, on a 4 yr old pony that was a good little pony it seemed but then puts the kid on the 2 yr old green mare thats been started 65 days earlier still with no helmet.
    If you're going to judge ANY western (or most foreign) horsemen/women fairly, you simply MUST get over The Helmet Thing. Wearing helmets is simply not part of their particular equestrian culture, any more than a foxhunter would wear batwing chaps. It's not an indictment of their judgement or horsemanship; it's simply not part of the regional tradition they represent. Please try to keep a more open mind.


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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    That's ok I happened along a new NH trainer last night on tv lol. Needless to say he was breaking a colt. Little qh look like. On the third day he was on the horse. IMO thats to quick. The horse was a nervous wreck about the saddle and of course he just got ran and ran around a round pen until covered in sweat. Now it being a 30 min show not sure how long he was ran but before the running he had a little sweat at his shoulder after he was covered in sweat it looked like. Then he gets on and runs him under saddle because well the horse needs to go forward so let's hit him on the rear with the reins and make him run. Not my idea of a good start on a horse. I'd like a horse to at least be comfortable with the saddle before riding lol.
    The worst part was telling people to stay at the horses shoulder right on the horse when he put the saddle on and the horse starts bucking. Good way to
    teach a beginner trying these methods to get ran over and seriously hurt. It was pull him in a tight circle and horse bucking but let's stay at his shoulder. Idk just didn't seem at all safe for him much less someone that has no clue. Of corse this guy also has a YouTube video with a 10 year old riding with him with no helmet, on a 4 yr old pony that was a good little pony it seemed but then puts the kid on the 2 yr old green mare thats been started 65 days earlier still with no helmet.
    Actually, in three days, in most cases, done properly, it's fine to get on. You might get a slight turn or just sit there and pet the horse, doing nothing on him. I don't care for the RTH thing, of getting them saddled and moving down the road. Not my style at all. For me, moving too fast, but there is also the thing of moving too slowly and irritating the horse. Read the horse and he'll tell you how fast or slow, I've never had a one-size fits all type training. If the horse is ready, get on sooner, I've had them born broke and then talked to the owner, thinking the horse had been started already, only to find out I was the first one aboard. A little sweat won't hurt them but all that frickin' roundpenning will. Get on, get a little steering and head out, if only the arena. Make sure you have some brakes and then go with the flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    If you're going to judge ANY western (or most foreign) horsemen/women fairly, you simply MUST get over The Helmet Thing. Wearing helmets is simply not part of their particular equestrian culture, any more than a foxhunter would wear batwing chaps. It's not an indictment of their judgement or horsemanship; it's simply not part of the regional tradition they represent. Please try to keep a more open mind.
    Funny, I was thinking of this today. I'm not a fan of helmets for anyone. However, the way my physical body is slowing down and changing, if I do riding again, I'll prolly get a helmet. But I'm not going to tell everyone else they have to wear one, kids included.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  20. #320
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    Oh believe me I know many western riders that have kids that don't wear helmets, yet none of them but their kid on a 2 yr old mare that's wiggly with 65 days on her either. The mare actually started bucking with this guy in her in the beginning and he had a hard time keeping her from dancing at the halt. IMO if your sticking a 10 yr old in that put a helmet on them at least. More so just don't put a 10 yr old rider on it at all and it wasn't a little mare either. Kid had a long way to go down if something happened.

    About getting on so soon. I said that I'd think a horse should at least be comfortable with the saddle before getting on. This horse by no means was comfortable with the saddle. The horse was a nervous wreck about it and actually was a nervous wreck when he was working it before hand with yielding it's hq
    stuff. Watching the show you could tell that horse was not ready for what was going on with it IMO. It was a nervous Neelie and made me nervous just watching the whole thing. But my main issue was running the crap out of the horse till it was soaked and wouldn't run anymore. Then getting on and running it more. The horse was walking off but had no clue about steering so it wasn't "forward" he said. No the horse was overly confused at what was happening. He says he's not listening to my leg, well no sh** he's not he has no clue what your doing. So that's when he starts popping it with the reins in the hqs and just makes it run around the round pen. I agree that some horses are easy and you can hop on in a few days but this horse IMO was just not ready. Ill see if I can find a video of it and pm but I'm not sure if I can.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



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