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  1. #281
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2000
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    California
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    Fairyknob Farm, I'm very sorry for your loss. I have no interest in getting into a "what you should do" lecture - just sympathy. I cannot imagine the grief you must have felt in getting that call and trying to deal with the aftermath. Until one of us is in your shoes, I don't think it fair to pass judgment on your situation.

    I'm so sorry.
    My Mustang Adventures - my blog!
    Yoga for Equestrians
    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran


    5 members found this post helpful.

  2. #282
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    Oct. 9, 2000
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    California
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    7,985

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    Ack, double post - stupid Windows 8!!!!
    My Mustang Adventures - my blog!
    Yoga for Equestrians
    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran



  3. #283
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2001
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    12th floor of the Acme building in a city that knows how to keep it's secrets.
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    4,871

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    At the point where you have a 5, 6, or 7 year old who can't be backed--you are in a make-or-break situation. Not only is an unusable horse that age a giant negative number and a liabiity, he has NO future if something happened to YOU.


    Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like there's a possibility that all that kissy-face and tricks training on the ground somehow might have given this horse the wrong idea about "who's on top." .
    This. Perhaps with a different start, he could have been an different horse. But when your business is predicated on kings and fairies and majik and romance and hair, sensible horsemanship is not at the top.

    This was a problem horse going to a problem horse trainer. I have no idea how or why the horse died. For the owner, finding out why was not a top priority. Yet, without a why, they question the horsemanship of the training facility they chose for their boy.

    On a different note, whenever I see a place that is focused more on fancy than functional (I'm thinking of the entry gate at CA's place, for instance,) the first thing I would think is, 'Here is where my money goes.'
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #284
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2008
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    Where The Snow Flies
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    2,272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    When your business is predicated on kings and fairies and majik and romance and hair, sensible horsemanship is not at the top.
    OMG! LOVE THIS!


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #285
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2011
    Posts
    195

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    who is to say he didn't offer?
    True, but she didn't mention it if he did.



  6. #286
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    Mar. 10, 2011
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    195

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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post


    Offering up prices (that we do not know if they are right or wrong) is some how discouraging her? If he did not want her to do a necropsy at all I am guessing he would not have brought the subject up.


    On the subject of the price, I am guessing, like so many things in life, he gave her the extreme high so there would not be any 'you said it was only going to be $300 and now they are billing me $3000 because I ordered every test in the book, you were not honest' in the end.

    Based on her account of the incident, yes, I don't believe he was overly encouraging about the necropsy.

    My only point, having had this exact same thing happen to one of my own horses (died when with a trainer), was that in my situation, the trainer called me and was very sympathetic (none of this, horses die, oh well stuff), and asked for my permission to have the necropsy done and said he would pay for it. At the time, I believed he was being kind, but in hindsight, I believe he was also wanting to make sure his bases were covered in case we tried to blame it on him (which we didn't).

    $3000 isn't a huge amount of money for CA to put up for the peace of mind of being able to prove that the horse died from causes unrelated to training. His level of visibility and the fact that there are so many CA haters out there would be enough to encourage ME to do it were I in his shoes.

    And I don't mind telling anyone that I am in fact biased against CA. I've seen him in person several times and he disgusts me. I wouldn't doubt for one second that a horse could suffer major injury, illness, or death from things I've seen him do--so I don't mind stating for the record that I'm not being totally objective here!

    That said, it just seems like smart pratice for someone like him to cover his bases and have the necropsy done. The fact that he didn't means something to me when coupled with other things I've seen him do. Might not mean anything to anyone else.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  7. #287
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2001
    Location
    Packing my bags
    Posts
    30,705

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    Quote Originally Posted by valkyrie36 View Post
    True, but she didn't mention it if he did.
    would not fit the story...

    I mean, he did offer her a 25k horse....oh the insult....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  8. #288
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,026

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    Not a fan of NH. I mean seriously, if you shake a stick at my face you bet I will back up. NO magic in that. Not a fan of CA, though he isn't HORRID in my book. I've seen a lot worse with "cowboy" trainers.

    Honestly though, this is all just outrageous. Fairy Knob, I bet when you scoffed at his 25k horse and implined that it was just a cow pony was a little bit of an insult. I mean to each his own, but you could have resold that horse. Is it ever going to replace your Pharo(h)? No, well you never know, because you won't try it. I would have taken the 25k "cow pony" (bet you won't find one like him on CL, sorry) that I could have ridden happily without worrying about getting bucked off. I'm so sorry for your loss, I know how hard it is to lose a horse. Public slander of a famous horse trainer (with very hardy and famous connections) is probably the last thing that you should be doing right now. Go mourn with your family and friends and take care of your animals. Fighting with people and sharing your story over and over is not going to help, it is going to make you more upset.

    There is plenty of this story that I see strange on both ends (yes) but how about calling your own vet or calling around for prices from other vets? How can you not drive two hours to see the horse? (Srsly, you can drive two hours there and back and be at work the next day.. From a fellow Texan.) I just don't get it, but I guess it's because I'm not in her or CA's position right now.

    Again Fairy Knob, I am SO sorry for your loss and I do understand you are upset. I hope you do feel better and can move on from all of this.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  9. #289
    Join Date
    Mar. 30, 2004
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    2,949

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    How could you afford CA's training program, but not afford to take one day off work? That's an honest question, btw. I am genuinely confused here.
    send some of their smart literate deer who can read road signs up here since ours are just run of the mill dumb ones who get splatted all over creation because they won't stay in the woods


    13 members found this post helpful.

  10. #290
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2012
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    3,802

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    I'd like to say one thing more, about what I call "Facebook Syndrome."

    Whatever dark force compels grown adults who should know better to upload their private business, legal disputes, and deepest feelings to a semi-public or public media source I simply don't understand. It is functionally no different than calling up the local TV station and getting it on the "news." I say "news," in quotation marks, because today such has a lot more to do with voyeuristic entertainment than it does with informing the public about things that actually affect their lives.

    When you run it up the flagpole, honey, dirty laundry inside out, you don't get to choose who salutes or which finger they do it with. So please spare me the "cruel and judgemental." I'm sorry you lost the horse, but the take-home lessons here are:

    (1) When you send your horse out, insure it first.

    (2) If the horse dies, then there WILL be a necropsy, PAID.

    (3) If at that point the trainer is culpable, negotiate from there.

    (4) If that trainer acts in good faith, do NOT slander them online.

    (5) If a horse is too much for you, sell it to qualified people long
    before it becomes an un-ownable, un-manageable liability.

    That's about all I've got to say . . .


    24 members found this post helpful.

  11. #291
    Join Date
    Feb. 20, 2012
    Posts
    84

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    Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like there's a possibility that all that kissy-face and tricks training on the ground somehow might have given this horse the wrong idea about "who's on top."
    This. Agree completely.

    My experiences with several rang-a-tang Iberians over the years (most were boarders) has led me to the conclusion that this is done for a reason. These horses require being in a program with constant, expert and very disciplined handling. Few of them are good choices for a novice, an ammie or a person who lacks the ability and desire to be very strong with a horse when need be. The bond one can develop with these horses can only be forged through deep, mutual respect.
    I agree to an extent. I have worked with Andaluisans, Lusitanos and Lippizans for over three decades. In that time I have found these breeds to be typically incredibly intelligent, highly trainable, and overall extremely easy to work with. I agree that they require consistent, good quality handling - but no more or less than any other breed. Usually when I see people get into trouble with these horses is when they attempt to be too forceful or rough. The Iberian breeds especially tend towards being highly sensitive, and as such do far better with tact and skill over force. I think the biggest problem is, as someone pointed out with Friesians, the Iberian breeds tend to attract owners who are not experienced horse people. Add to that unrealistic expectations and ego and you get a recipe for disaster.

    Tragic and sad story for the horse. I feel for the woman and her loss too. No matter what her mental state is, or whether or not she made a terrible decision (which IMHO she truly did). It's awful to lose a horse.

    As for CA, it's amazing to me that anyone would actually allow him to touch their horse. GIANT red flags all over the place.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  12. #292
    Join Date
    May. 21, 2012
    Posts
    1,261

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    I don't think it's proper to get into financial questioning about this. Just because a person can afford one thing, doesn't mean they can afford everything. Being able to do one thing that others consider luxury (like own a horse anyone?) or, in this case, a Friesian horse... or a name brand training facility- does not mean people are rolling in dough- the choices to spend money where they do might be a matter of priorities and saving, not a matter of bounty. Also- being able to "afford" something is not always a financial question- sometimes it's the setback that you can't afford. If you are working towards a deadline- or working with a group- you can't afford to miss work. has nothing to do with money.

    I think that line of questioning is none of our business... but the confusion of why the responsibility of getting and paying for the necropsy wasn't shifted to the Down Under people is reasonable.

    Several people have said that they don't think it's "the responsibility" of CA to do the necropsy. It's not his responsibility to other people... it's his responsibility for his own clear conscience, repuation and information.

    I keep being reminded of another scandalous necropsy- which was regarding the New York City carriage horse Charlie who died suddenly one morning shortly after leaving the stable on his way to work. As I understand- Charlie's owner or driver- (may be one and the same) was really pressured and intimidated into signing over the body of the horse which then was taken over by the ASPCA. They took the horse to Cornell for a necropsy and we all sat on pins and needles waiting for the results- since no one knew the cause of his death. The ASPCA now owned the results- and when they did release information- it was only little bits and pieces of it- not the full report- short on science and heavy with the spin of the ASPCA... a spin which led to the ASPCA vet (not the necropsy vet) finally speaking out against the spin and then being suspended. Finally she resigned because of the conflict of interest the ASPCA has in it's dealings with the carriage industry. My appologies if I got any of this story wrong. But the reason why I am bring it up is because it was a situation where necropsy results had the potential to really fry someone or to relieve them of any "guilt" in the horse's death. The fact that the "posession" of the necropsy was shifted to someone who had a vested interest in the results being a certain way- was potentially a very hot problem- and it proved to be. (By the way- the cause of death was inconclusive)


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #293
    Join Date
    Feb. 20, 2012
    Posts
    84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Doubtful.... Cray cray peeps don't care about stuff like oh, you know, genetic health when it has HAIR and is so SPESHUL!! This horse communicated with her telepathicly through her dreams. I'm sure he would have communicated the fact that he wanted to keep his junk.
    Oh jeez!! That's laugh out loud funny!



  14. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candle View Post
    How could you afford CA's training program, but not afford to take one day off work? That's an honest question, btw. I am genuinely confused here.
    Afford may not be meant literally. People use it a lot to refer to consequences beyond financial. If work is extremely strict about sick days, if you've used all your sick days and work doesn't allow leave without pay, if you're on a very tight deadline and missing it may cause serious reprecussions and/or firing -- your choice may well be between going to work or not having a job at all. And in that case, sure, you may not be able to afford to take time off.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #295
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2005
    Location
    Central California Mountains
    Posts
    765

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaitedincali View Post
    Well, the video I posted of him winning at the NRBC would be one.
    Additional research based on this information shows he won the 2008 NRBC Limited Open Division on a horse he did not do all the training on - which he readily admitted in this article:

    He ... finished in the top limited open slot on Princess On The Prowl—a horse trained by himself and the NRHA’s newest Million Dollar Rider Brent Wright. * * * Anderson gave much of the credit for the success of Princess On The Prowl to Wright. “I did all the work on her for her two-year-old year, and he trained her all of her three-year-old year,” Anderson said. He did a phenomenal job with her, and he deserves a lot of credit.”
    Good for him for getting out and showing.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #296
    Join Date
    May. 19, 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    59

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    When you sign a horse like that over to someone for re-education, you must assume that some pretty strong methods of obtaining submission will be used. These may include flipping, various forms of tying or hobbling, withholding normal feed or water,
    Wow, I must have been doing it wrong rehabbing maneaters all these years.

    I've never had to (or accidentally) flip, hobble, unusually tie up, use sketchy equipment, spur up, jerk on, run to the point of exhaustion, starve or dehydrate a horse to get them rehabbed into happy, confident, well-behaved individuals.

    And if any one has seen Clinton's video on youtube about "problem horses" (the one with the bay horse chasing someone around a roundbale feeder, the broncs, and the black mare who flips due to reaction to pain caused by Clinton pushing back hard on a Tom Thumb bit when she got in his face, the same one who pulls back when loaded and tied into a deathtr--- excuse me, 2 horse straight load bumper pull with 7 ft wheel base)---- well, let's just say I've had horses who were absolutely more dangerous that ANY horse seen on that video, and have never felt the need to beat, pound, starve, truss up, or dehydrate a single one of them.

    And holy cow, I even fed them grain!!! From Day One!! LOL!!! Apparently Clinton needs to read some articles about starch, where it comes from, and what it does to blood glucose levels. If you feed low-starch, there's no reason at all that a "hot or nervous" horse shouldn't get a concentrated source of calories to meet their daily requirements for nutrition, especially if they are:

    1) Stressed out and pacing their run, burning calories
    2) Being worked beyond their fitness level and need the protein/calories/minerals to encourage quick muscle recovery, and prevent things like tying up, fatigue-related injuries, etc.

    My worst on the maneaters? A 1-2-3 on the rope halter, a light spank on the bum only when required to gain a response, tons of praise for doing ANYTHING other than aggression, and standing my ground in a firm, confident manner, and verbal cues like "HEY!" or "Click click."

    You can deal with 95% of behavioral issues without being outright abusive, ya know. LOL. Most training is MENTAL, not physical domination. It's being quick-thinking, responding at the right moments, observing the horse, setting boundaries and communicating effectively and clearly. Being persistent, consistent, patient, and stubborn. Mutual respect. Why should a horse respect you for roughing them up? Why should a horse respect you when you've done nothing to prove you deserve it, or that you are capable of being truly kind and pleasant?

    Just because you're pleasant doesn't mean you're going to let a horse stomp all over you. Just because you're firm and confident, doesn't mean you have to be overly aggressive, either.

    Witholding food and water... Oh people, some days you just kill me.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  17. #297
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    14,888

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    I'd like to say one thing more, about what I call "Facebook Syndrome."...

    (4) If that trainer acts in good faith, do NOT slander them online.
    I think this is the heart of the matter.

    Fairy Knob doesn't think beyond herself in posting the whole story on FB or here....like a serialized Charles Dickens novel.

    It never occurred to her that CA would see a problem, or even that she had to have a well-conceived motive (e.g. a warning to those seeking CA's training). After all, she writes that she believes there was no foul-play involved so there is nothing to warn folks about.

    Not a lot of thought, just a bunch of blow-by-blow story about something important to her.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #298
    Join Date
    Oct. 10, 2007
    Location
    down south
    Posts
    5,060

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    I agree with the fb syndrome. Many many people air all their dirty laundry for the world to see lol. I don't understand it. I may put I had a great ride today or what we worked on but usually not much else. It's funny when I haven't seen a person since high school but now 17 Yeats later I know all about their break up and the fight they have with the boyfriend all over fb lol. Or how someones baby's daddy's doing something etc. It's crazy to me.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #299

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    I am sorry for her loss. I believe she said she never rode this horse because the one time she did resulted in getting bucked off and some broken bones. The horse could have killed her. I think it was a last ditch effort to get a problem horse trained so as to keep and ride it or sell it. But it was already 7 yrs. old. It might take a month or so for her to even think of getting a horse to replace it,even if it was a bolting and bucking danger.God has strange ways of saving us from dangers. OK, if it got completely domesticated to a calm safe horse that would be one thing. But getting to own a Signature Horse is beyond most peoples finances.They are totally trained safe for everyone to ride including Grandma and the grandkids. That is why people buy them for $25,000.Its because of all the hours of training that are put into them. Now I hear they are going up to $30,000.I think she is devastated and maybe needs more time to work thru this before she makes a final decision on the Signature Horse. And maybe Clinton, being the boss man, invite her to the ranch to see the horse when things calm down.



  20. #300
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2012
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    3,802

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    Quote Originally Posted by esperanza View Post
    I am sorry for her loss. I believe she said she never rode this horse because the one time she did resulted in getting bucked off and some broken bones. The horse could have killed her. I think it was a last ditch effort to get a problem horse trained so as to keep and ride it or sell it. But it was already 7 yrs. old. It might take a month or so for her to even think of getting a horse to replace it,even if it was a bolting and bucking danger.God has strange ways of saving us from dangers. OK, if it got completely domesticated to a calm safe horse that would be one thing. But getting to own a Signature Horse is beyond most peoples finances.They are totally trained safe for everyone to ride including Grandma and the grandkids. That is why people buy them for $25,000.Its because of all the hours of training that are put into them. Now I hear they are going up to $30,000.I think she is devastated and maybe needs more time to work thru this before she makes a final decision on the Signature Horse. And maybe Clinton, being the boss man, invite her to the ranch to see the horse when things calm down.
    Actually, if I were Clinton I'd put on some extra fruitbat repellent and be done with it.


    8 members found this post helpful.

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